Comments on: The Loudness War is over

The Loudness War is over

Lanark — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:12:11 -0800

The music industry Loudness War is over. Research into actual sales rankings, Radio Impact, Listener ratings and Hearing loss, all show better results for music with a higher dynamic range.

By: wierdo

wierdo — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:13:54 -0800

WHAT'S THAT? LOUDER, YOU SAY? OK!

By: i_have_a_computer

i_have_a_computer — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:18:38 -0800

THERESALADYWHOSSUREALLTHATGLITTERSISGOLDANDSHESBUYINGASTAIRWAYTOHEAVEN!

By: zombieApoc

zombieApoc — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:19:57 -0800

thank f&*^^$) Eru

By: fearfulsymmetry

fearfulsymmetry — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:20:22 -0800

By: Lanark

Lanark — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:20:35 -0800

Here's the venerable Stairway to Heaven – with a dB range of -40 dB to about -5dB for a range of 35 dB. That's a whole lot of range.

By: radiosilents

radiosilents — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:21:02 -0800

Steve Albini's production on Pj Harvey's "Rid of Me" FINALLY JUSTIFIED BY SCIENCE

By: two or three cars parked under the stars

two or three cars parked under the stars — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:22:22 -0800

Thank god for this! But I'm still sad about all the recordings in the past few years that have been diminished to some extent by this approach.

By: hippybear

hippybear — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:23:13 -0800

If only the actual people responsible for mixing and mastering music were paying attention. But they aren't. So while the loudness war may be over, it's the discerning music fan and their ears who are the loser, while loudness simply takes over all territories.

By: kuujjuarapik

kuujjuarapik — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:28:10 -0800

wait, what? There are sales rankings for 9 out of 21 albums, and they didn't even bother to adjust for genre. They have Motorhead and Metallica vs. Michael Jackson. Doesn't make much of a point.

By: doctor_negative

doctor_negative — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:29:44 -0800

Um, duh.

By: msbutah

msbutah — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:32:15 -0800

Perfect, since today is FRIED EGG! FRIED EGG!

By: Schlimmbesserung

Schlimmbesserung — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:33:09 -0800

Somewhere Steven Wilson is grinning smugly. Porcupine Tree albums come with little notices warning that they might be a little quieter than what you were expecting.

By: es_de_bah

es_de_bah — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:35:58 -0800

thank jesus. thank lofi jesus.

By: UbuRoivas

UbuRoivas — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:36:50 -0800

This could be because now that iPods are ubiquitous, people are listening to the radio less. Lack of dynamic range was driven by radio more than anything else.

By: BrotherCaine

BrotherCaine — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:37:54 -0800

Radio, CDs, and club music.

By: Lanark

Lanark — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:38:09 -0800

wait, what? There are sales rankings for 9 out of 21 albums.. posted by kuujjuarapik The Vimeo video (Hearing loss link) has more detail on sales, starting about 11 minutes in. Four studies were done, they don't show any correlation between loudness and increased sales.

By: squalor

squalor — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:41:33 -0800

Wasn't that the awesome thing when you first listened to this? First it's quiet, then it's LOUD!

By: unSane

unSane — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:42:30 -0800

Producers, mixing engineers and mastering engineers are all acutely aware of this, just so you know.

By: kuujjuarapik

kuujjuarapik — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:43:59 -0800

Um, duh. Are you calling me dumb? No really. If the guy wants to make a point that loudness has nothing to do with sales he should prove it. I keep following his links to the "research" and I have not yet found one data point regarding sales except for the iffy chart. Only one slide of his talks about the high dynamic range of The Eagles Greatest Hits being responsible for its high sales volume, and extrapolates that loudness is the reason for the decline of the record industry. That's a big statement and I'd like to see it backed up with some more solid data. Because as it stands it's just another fucking opinion.

By: flapjax at midnite

flapjax at midnite — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:44:49 -0800

The Loudness War is over Chigaimasu.

By: kuujjuarapik

kuujjuarapik — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:45:32 -0800

on lack of preview, thanks for the vimeo link, Lanark. I'll watch it sometime tomorrow.

By: gngstrMNKY

gngstrMNKY — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:45:34 -0800

I think the loudness war is part of the reason vinyl has made a resurgence in the past few years. LPs are incapable hard clipping and they're usually still made with a non-crushed mix, though sometimes the CD mix is used.

By: DU

DU — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:54:42 -0800

What people like is neither loudness nor dynamic range. What they like is whatever stands out from the stuff around it. If everyone else is dynamic, be loud. If everyone else is loud, be dynamic. The grass always sounds better on the other side of the fence.

By: immlass

immlass — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:55:10 -0800

Fingers crossed that dynamic range comes back into fashion, both because I like the music better that way myself and so all the audiophiles I know will quit complaining.

By: ianhattwick

ianhattwick — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 17:09:00 -0800

Surprising that the FPP doesn't mention the fact that today is Dynamic Range Day (which is mentioned in the radio link, and I think it is exactly a national holiday.) I agree that the sales ranking graph seems to lack a lot of things that would make it convincing - for example, comparing albums released during the same year, in similar genres, correlating statistically significant numbers of albums, etc. The graph looks pretty, though! The vimeo link has better and more convincing studies, but statistics can lie in a good cause as well as bad and I am hesitant to endorse those studies unreservedly. The real news here seems to be that appropriate compression and limiting levels vary depending on the format in which we listen to music, and that we are beginning to have the ability to control volume dynamically within different systems. Radio stations as mentioned already severely compress music before broadcasting (although I'll bet internet radio doesn't). iTunes and other digital music players are gaining the ability to process music so tracks are the same perceived volume (although whether that is a good thing depends on what you listen to.) Something I am very happy to see is compression in car stereos as well as the ability for a car stereo to change volume depending on the car's speed (in order to scale with road noise.) When mastering an album one of the goals is to make the music translate across different stereo systems, so that it sounds good on a cheap stereo (and laptop speakers nowadays) as well as a high quality stereo. Places where loudness is a good thing include car stereos (where we listen to radio mostly btw), headphones while walking (especially in a city) or exercising, dance music, etc. The ability to change the compression within the device rather than while mastering is really a big and potentially important change.

By: ianhattwick

ianhattwick — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 17:09:30 -0800

*isn't exactly a national holiday (and I did proofread, dammit!)

By: chimaera

chimaera — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 17:11:51 -0800

And here just as I'm putting the last few sessions into recording an album that is planned to come out in standard and HDR versions (slightly different mixes, very different mastering). Calling the truce on the Loudness War just stole my marketing ~~gimmick~~ plan. (actually, not really a gimmick; narrow dynamic range has its place, i.e. in loud environments like cars or very quiet listening while going to sleep)

By: The World Famous

The World Famous — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 17:23:57 -0800

Wasn't that the awesome thing when you first listened to this ? First it's quiet, then it's LOUD! Actually, the first time I listened to Smells Like Teen Spirit, I said "who's the idiot who ran Nirvana through all that compression?"

By: Threeway Handshake

Threeway Handshake — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 17:25:59 -0800

***Cranks ups Bone Machine by The Pixies***

By: bwg

bwg — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 17:34:12 -0800

WHAT?! SPEAK UP SONNY, I CAN'T HEAR YA!

By: toekneebullard

toekneebullard — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 17:58:54 -0800

As a musician and audio engineer, the return of dynamic range makes me happy. As a guy who listen to 90% of his music in the car, a car which does not keep out road noise even little bit, this makes me sad.

By: rongorongo

rongorongo — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 17:59:27 -0800

The sheer number of people who are listening to music in public spaces means that the collateral damage in the loudness war has extended there too. A typical journey by train or by air (particularly on a discount airline) in the UK is an acoustic battleground between travellers who wish to listen to music on headphones and the designers or PA announcements who want those travellers to buy sandwiches and not die in a crash. Oddly this seems to vary by country: I spent few days commuting on Danish train recently: all the announcements were made on video screens only and the train itself was quite quiet. This meant that those listening to music could turn down the volume and still hear - maybe even appreciate some dynamic range.

By: sonascope

sonascope — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 18:03:59 -0800

And thus, we can rejoice.

By: meadowlark lime

meadowlark lime — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 18:04:06 -0800

Yes, The music industry's Loudness War is over! But what of the typewriter industry's Ink-Ribbon War, or the chastity-belt industry's Razor Teeth war?

By: MeatLightning

MeatLightning — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 19:02:03 -0800

The music industry ~~loudness war~~ is over. ftfy...

By: Dumsnill

Dumsnill — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 19:10:50 -0800

While you might be right, I do wish the fixedthatforyou-industry would just die.

By: doctor_negative

doctor_negative — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 19:11:27 -0800

@kuujjuarapik Sorry, not aimed at you. Just responding to the whole idea that recordings sound better with more dynamic range. For me it was obvious from the get go.

By: mintcake!

mintcake! — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 20:06:59 -0800

Somewhere Steven Wilson is grinning smugly. His work on the most recent King Crimson reissues is wonderous.

By: rebent

rebent — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 20:11:50 -0800

I was going to watch that second video and then I turned it off I looked over to my girlfriend and saying "Oh man, that was about to be a *really boring* video" she laughed

By: Zack_Replica

Zack_Replica — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 20:21:53 -0800

Waitasec here. I thought the whole loudness war thing was won ages ago. It just seems wrong not to give credit where it's due to those three blokes who managed to do Everything Louder Than Everyone Else.

By: flapjax at midnite

flapjax at midnite — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 20:30:27 -0800

she laughed And that, friends, is what makes the world go round!

By: swift

swift — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 21:06:50 -0800

...in bed.

By: flapjax at midnite

flapjax at midnite — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 21:59:58 -0800

...in bed. Hey, you didn't hafta go get all obvious on us, swift!

By: idiopath

idiopath — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 22:07:56 -0800

Zack_Replica: "I thought the whole loudness war thing was won ages ago" Yeah Merzbow won (caution very loud and annoying).

By: kozad

kozad — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 22:11:55 -0800

I thought listening to music via headphones was pretty cool in the Sixties, but I've been listening to music through the air for the last forty years so I guess I'm pretty stuck in the Get Off My Lawn Crowd. I'm not an audiophile. Most musicians are not audiophiles. If you are a musician/audiophile - more power to you. You are smarter than I. But traveling the world of random John Cage sounds and every now and then putting on Beck or Natacha Atlas or Monk or sub-Saharan collections at home - shit, I'm sounding like a pretentious elitist snob - is enough for me. I don't need a constant soundtrack, especially a compressed soundtrack, in my ears alla time.

By: mykescipark

mykescipark — Sat, 26 Mar 2011 01:05:36 -0800

Bob Mould, bless him, was both a major player in and a victim of the loudness wars. But he also gave us this, so that's a sainthoodsworth of blown speakers.

By: mahershalal

mahershalal — Sat, 26 Mar 2011 04:54:47 -0800

I can't wait to find out what the Flaming Lips really sound like.

By: punkfloyd

punkfloyd — Sat, 26 Mar 2011 07:27:35 -0800

The Rolling Stones' 2005 album A Bigger Bang had such a loudness issue that I could not listen to it more than once. The songs themselves were not horrible (a bit like Some Girls), but it was everything was cranked to 11. It was like Jagger mixed it on Pro-Tools or something. Many fans agree mix is a disaster.

By: punkfloyd

punkfloyd — Sat, 26 Mar 2011 07:32:37 -0800

A good Rolling Stones related loudness thread here on iorr.org.

By: The Card Cheat

The Card Cheat — Sat, 26 Mar 2011 07:51:36 -0800

Every time there's a Loudness War thread on MetaFilter I go and listen to a few of the bands/recordings implicated as the worst offenders/victims, and if they're heavy on electric guitars it just sounds like somebody singing over a lawnmower (and not in a good way). My problem with a lot of modern pop/rock/whatever music* is not so much the music itself as the bright, loud, sterile production. * I'm an old fart, and I know the vast majority of it is not made with me in mind...which is fine and as it should be, but still.

By: immlass

immlass — Sat, 26 Mar 2011 07:52:07 -0800

I don't need a constant soundtrack, especially a compressed soundtrack, in my ears alla time. Dude, no offense, but you're closer to the audiophiles I know than a lot of people. Most of them are complaining that we spend too much time experiencing music as noise and not enough time listening to it as LPs and paying attention to it, as $DEITY clearly intended.

By: Threeway Handshake

Threeway Handshake — Sat, 26 Mar 2011 08:39:02 -0800

Most of them are complaining that we spend too much time experiencing music as noise and not enough time listening to it as LPs and paying attention to it, as $DEITY clearly intended. I don't know about intentions, but complaining everything is dynamically compressed, to me, is more like going to a bar and ordering a beer, and they put ice cubes in it. Beer's supposed to be cold, yes, but there's better ways to make it cold without ruining it for the people who enjoy it. I guess I'm sorry you don't enjoy things that you listen to.

By: immlass

immlass — Sat, 26 Mar 2011 09:06:36 -0800

I'm pretty happy with my music, Threeway. I'm paraphrasing an argument I've heard made more or less seriously by audiophiles of my acquaintance. I'll admit I've realized I'd enjoy some of my music more if it had been mastered better/with more dynamic range, but I don't listen to anything (recorded, in my music collection) that I don't enjoy very often.

By: snuffleupagus

snuffleupagus — Sat, 26 Mar 2011 09:08:16 -0800

The recording/mastering engineer behind Airwindows.com (Chris Johnson, IIRC) used to have a whole screed up about this, complete with album sales figures going back decades, and analysis of hit singles with sonograms and level plots. Eventually he took it down--supposedly for an update--and it never came back. I wrote to him once about it, and he said he hoped to redo it, but I wonder if he decided he was giving too much of the game away. Here are the wayback versions. They are FASCINATING reading. Airwindows: The Evergreen Albums (and artists) Airwindows: Dynamics * (front page and intro for the album-by-album analyses) Airwindows: Stairway to Heaven (intro entry -- how to read the sonograms) *this page later replaced w/a sales pitch

By: modernnomad

modernnomad — Sat, 26 Mar 2011 11:04:48 -0800

so all the audiophiles I know will quit complaining. trust me when I tell you that nothing will prevent self-declared audiophiles from complaining -- without the complaining, they don't have an opportunity to demonstrate their superior listening/appreciation skills to you.

By: rocket88

rocket88 — Sat, 26 Mar 2011 11:37:43 -0800

If your hearing range extended into the near-infrared frequency band, you'd be complaining, too.

By: Mister_A

Mister_A — Sat, 26 Mar 2011 14:31:06 -0800

infrared hearing tastes like ultraviolet

By: chillmost

chillmost — Sat, 26 Mar 2011 15:43:50 -0800

That's a whole lotta range. ftfy

By: ZenMasterThis

ZenMasterThis — Sat, 26 Mar 2011 20:17:50 -0800

If it's too loud, you're not deaf and/or indifferent enough!

By: anazgnos

anazgnos — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 17:04:42 -0800

So, not so much "loudness war is over" as much as "loudness war is over (if you want it)"

By: ZenMasterThis

ZenMasterThis — Tue, 29 Mar 2011 18:25:48 -0800

Previously.