Comments on: With four and twenty black-and-white birds, here's the history of the pie
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie/
Comments on MetaFilter post With four and twenty black-and-white birds, here's the history of the pieTue, 22 Nov 2011 12:03:30 -0800Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:03:30 -0800en-ushttp://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss60With four and twenty black-and-white birds, here's the history of the pie
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie
NPR's food blog gets wordy: <a href="http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2011/11/17/142460593/for-the-origins-of-pie-look-to-the-humble-magpie">for the origins of "pie," look to the humble magpie</a>. Though the <a href="http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pie">etymology of pie</a> doesn't present one clear path, the possibilities are fascinating. English surnames point to pie and pye as a baked good in the 1300s, with <a href="http://www.smithpye.com/pye_data/pyeinfo.htm">a Peter Piebakere in 1320 and Adam le Piemakere in 1332</a>. Chaucer referred to "pye" <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=ndzQAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA87#v=onepage&q&f=false">as both a baked good and a magpie</a> <small>(Google books)</small>. Or perhaps the fillings were like a magpie's collection of bits and bobs, similar to haggis. You know, <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=hsRISNLSSHAC&lpg=PP1&pg=PT440#v=onepage&q&f=false">like the French "agace," or magpie</a> <small>(Gb)</small>, and similar to <a href="http://www.medievalcookery.com/search/display.html?thoma:10:KLF">chewets</a>, those baked goods, or <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=K4wZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA101#v=onepage&q&f=false">another name for jackdaws</a> <small>(Gb)</small>, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackdaw">relative of the magpie</a>. <br /><br />One additional tangent is the possibility that the contents of medieval pies could be seen as light crusts and dark filling, as <a href="http://wordsmith.org/words/pied.html">"pied" refers to a jumble of colors</a>, like the <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=-eDem_w7AcAC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA13#v=onepage&q&f=false">Pied Piper of Hamelin (1842)</a> <small>(Gb)</small>. Jump ahead to the 1850s, and <a href="http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=piebald">piebald appears</a>, blending (mag)pie and bald, meaning spotted or white.
If all this talk of pastries filled with whatnot, <a href="http://www.godecookery.com/mtrans/mtrans.htm">Gode Cookery has medieval recipe translations</a> for your perusal and enjoyment.post:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:01:11 -0800filthy light thiefpiemagpiehaggischewetjackdawChaucerShakespeareentomologymedievalrecipeBy: filthy light thief
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4043431
Of note: the NPR article has a lot of links to <a href="http://www.oed.com/">Oxford English Dictionary entries</a>, which are limited in access.
Another tangent: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sing_a_Song_of_Sixpence">Sing a Song of Sixpence</a> is another interesting story.comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4043431Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:03:30 -0800filthy light thiefBy: delmoi
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4043447
<a href="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-AtkyRHOZios/TrvxyOgsGdI/AAAAAAAAEXQ/MEd0905yyQE/s500/tumblr_lufkjcMC8R1qae5i4o1_500.jpeg">here's the obvious source of the name</a>comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4043447Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:09:13 -0800delmoiBy: General Tonic
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4043461
Today is a good day for pie!comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4043461Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:12:20 -0800General TonicBy: furtive
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4043516
In French <a href="http://www.linternaute.com/dictionnaire/fr/definition/agacer/">agace</a></i> also means to irritate or tease, I never knew it was tied to the magpie. The English word <i>pius</i> is also <i>pie</i> in French (like the pope and metro stop Pie IX) and I wonder if those are related somehow.
It's also worth noting that the French pronunciation of 'pie' (as in magpie) is much like the anglophone <i>pee</i>, and matches the chirp it makes <i>pee! pee!</i> ...which reminds of this difficult question: how many animals can you think of with onomatopoeic names?comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4043516Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:37:12 -0800furtiveBy: Bonzai
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4043552
People used to be stupid or something.comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4043552Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:50:37 -0800BonzaiBy: baf
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4043611
<em>how many animals can you think of with onomatopoeic names?</em>
151.comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4043611Tue, 22 Nov 2011 13:21:08 -0800bafBy: jquinby
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4043650
<em>151</em>
Ah, but in which language(s)?comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4043650Tue, 22 Nov 2011 13:38:44 -0800jquinbyBy: Lou Stuells
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4043683
I am amused that the Latin for magpie is <em><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002505/">pica</a></em>.comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4043683Tue, 22 Nov 2011 13:50:33 -0800Lou StuellsBy: Jehan
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4043717
One for sorrow, two for joy,
Three for a girl, four for a boy.
<em>It's also worth noting that the French pronunciation of 'pie' (as in magpie) is much like the anglophone pee, and matches the chirp it makes pee! pee! ...which reminds of this difficult question: how many animals can you think of with onomatopoeic names?</em>
The folkname for lapwings round my end is peewit or pyewipe, both obviously mindful of its call. But I think magpies have a much different call, not like "pie" or "pee", at least in Europe.comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4043717Tue, 22 Nov 2011 14:08:19 -0800JehanBy: nebulawindphone
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4043721
<i>Pie</i> is one of the weird Spanish words that's been borrowed from English without being respelled or having its pronunciation rearranged. So it's pronounced /pai/, more or less like in English, and it means, you know, "delicious North American pastry."
Problem is, Spanish already <i>had</i> a word spelled P-I-E. It's pronounced /pje/, and it means "foot."
So you'll see <i>pie de queso</i> on restaurant menus sometimes, but if you pronounce it like it's spelled you end up saying "give me a cheesefoot" and people snicker at you.comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4043721Tue, 22 Nov 2011 14:09:17 -0800nebulawindphoneBy: Jon_Evil
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4043739
I'm pretty sure the Spanish word for pie is <em>pastel</em>, or for a meat pie, <em>empanada</em>. Unless it's different for Europe than for the Americas.comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4043739Tue, 22 Nov 2011 14:15:09 -0800Jon_EvilBy: nebulawindphone
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4043844
Yeah, it's been in Central America that I've seen it, and mostly for recipes imported from the US: <i>pie de queso</i>, <i>pie de cereza</i>, etc. <i>Pastel</i> is used generically there for just about any sweet pastry: cakes, pies, eclair-type things, whatever.
Wouldn't surprise me at all if things were different in Spain — or even in other parts of Latin America. It's a big place.comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4043844Tue, 22 Nov 2011 14:44:53 -0800nebulawindphoneBy: sandraregina
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4044291
For Halloween I went as the pieman. With a pie full of 4 and 20 blackbirds. My mom made the pie from beige felt, my dad and I sprayed many dollar-store birds black, and then we stuffed the 'pie' with the birds. Couldn't fit them all in, so a few were tied to the outside of the crust. (I put white glitter on the crust so it looked all sugary). Then I dressed up like a chef, with the hat and everything, and a really bad, really awfully outrageous moustache.
It was an awesome costume.
Not really relevant to the story at hand, it just reminded me of my pie. My awesome blackbird pie.comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4044291Tue, 22 Nov 2011 18:00:22 -0800sandrareginaBy: localroger
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4044336
<i>how many animals can you think of with onomatopoeic names?</i>
My wife's favorite is the <i>pitohui</i>, a Hawaiian bird which is the only poisonous bird in the world.
In other news, there are a <i>shitload</i> of birds with onomatopoeic common names.comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4044336Tue, 22 Nov 2011 18:22:32 -0800localrogerBy: localroger
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4044338
On lookup, not Hawaiian, but New Guinean. Same ocean at least.comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4044338Tue, 22 Nov 2011 18:24:52 -0800localrogerBy: Eyebrows McGee
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4044436
<a href="http://www.godecookery.com/goderec/grec21.htm">This mushroom pie</a> from Gode Cookery is fantastic. I make it ALL THE TIME.comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4044436Tue, 22 Nov 2011 19:30:45 -0800Eyebrows McGeeBy: immlass
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4044449
I've just been reading a book about the West Indies sugar barons, and now I'm wanting to tie the history of sweet vs savory pies (pasties) into the mix somehow. The availability of cane sugar at a lower cost as the West Indies plantations come online has to have some effect on the actual pies, if not on the linguistics.comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4044449Tue, 22 Nov 2011 19:36:40 -0800immlassBy: h00py
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4044826
There's an owl (tawny frogmouth) commonly known as a 'mopoke' because that's what their call sounds like.comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4044826Wed, 23 Nov 2011 04:44:54 -0800h00pyBy: h00py
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4044828
I've been making a lot of pies recently. I enjoyed this.comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4044828Wed, 23 Nov 2011 04:45:29 -0800h00pyBy: Erroneous
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4045200
Started a pie-a-week project last August and have been obsessed with pies as a result. This week I'm taking an awkward week off from pie-baking, so this is a nice mental treat instead. Thanks for the links!comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4045200Wed, 23 Nov 2011 08:21:32 -0800ErroneousBy: filthy light thief
http://www.metafilter.com/109693/With-four-and-twenty-blackandwhite-birds-heres-the-history-of-the-pie#4045851
<a href="http://www.owlpages.com/articles.php?section=Other+Owl+Stuff&title=Tawny+Frogmouth">When is an owl not an owl? When it is a Tawny Frogmout</a>.comment:www.metafilter.com,2011:site.109693-4045851Wed, 23 Nov 2011 12:35:08 -0800filthy light thief
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