Comments on: Literature and porn stars

Literature and porn stars

skilar — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:20:37 -0800

Consider everything here potentially NSFW, even if not marked. Lots of background and sidebar images that may offend.

Kayden Kross (NSFW) and Stoya (previously) aren't stereotypical porn stars. For the release of Adam Levin's Hot Pink, Kross interviewed Levin on the McSweeney's website. Stoya was featured (along with Paul Dano) in the book trailer for Adam Wilson's Flatscreen. And together Kross and Stoya discussed Chad Kultgen's Men, Women & Children — a novel that mentions Stoya by name. Kross digs David Foster Wallace; Stoya digs some good stuff, too. Both keep (very NSFW) blogs (Kayden 1, 2; Stoya 1, 2) where they write about all kinds of stuff. Last November on Fleshbot (NSFW) Stoya did a five-part series on sex in Japan. And check out Stoya's guest post on Warren Ellis's blog.

Also check out an interview with Kross conducted by former porn star Julie Meadows (aka Lydia Lee): part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7; and an interview with Stoya at AEE 2011 (location of DFW's "Big Red Son"), during which she takes no crap. (Also great is an interview Meadows conducts with Ron Jeremy.)

By: roll truck roll

roll truck roll — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:25:28 -0800

It seems like this post ought to mention Lorelei Lee.

By: chavenet

chavenet — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:41:52 -0800

FWIW, most porn stars aren't stereotypical porn stars either. I know what you mean, and I really like this post, but I bet you could find a broad range of culturally literate porn stars out there.

By: Nomyte

Nomyte — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:43:14 -0800

From Griphus's profile:

He pressed a button. A wall of books opened, and I walked like a lamb into that bustling pleasure palace known as Flossie's. Red flocked wallpaper and a Victorian decor set the tone. Pale, nervous girls with black-rimmed glasses and blunt-cut hair lolled around on sofas, riffling Penguin Classics provocatively. A blonde with a big smile winked at me, nodded toward a room upstairs, and said, "Wallace Stevens, eh?" But it wasn't just intellectual experiences. They were peddling emotional ones, too. For fifty bucks, I learned, you could "relate without getting close." For a hundred, a girl would lend you her Bartok records, have dinner, and then let you watch while she had an anxiety attack. For one-fifty, you could listen to FM radio with twins. For three bills, you got the works: A thin Jewish brunette would pretend to pick you up at the Museum of Modern Art, let you read her master's, get you involved in a screaming quarrel at Elaine's over Freud's conception of women, and then fake a suicide of your choosing - the perfect evening, for some guys. Nice racket. Great town, New York.

By: Fizz

Fizz — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:43:49 -0800

People are many things at many different times. I have many hats.

By: chavenet

chavenet — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:45:25 -0800

I am large, I contain multitudes. Sometimes literally true for porn stars...

By: skilar

skilar — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:49:19 -0800

@chavenet: Agreed, and it wasn't my intent to portray porn stars as dumb or culturally illiterate. Just wanted to feature some of the interesting things these ladies have been doing lately. I think I just had a hard time thinking of a good way to frame all of it.

By: kenko

kenko — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:50:15 -0800

Nomyte: that piece might just be my favorite thing Woody Allen's ever done.

By: 256

256 — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:58:21 -0800

Stoya recently did a pretty great "Ask Me Anything" on Reddit.

By: 256

256 — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:59:20 -0800

Oh, your previously link.

By: tigrefacile

tigrefacile — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 13:19:59 -0800

So your ideal woman is a free spirit, both mentally and sexually (though you both appreciate that it's a false distinction), she is a tigress in bed and an intellectual colossus elsewhere. But one day you're going to have to accommodate the various oversized dicks of complete strangers that are significant elements of her professional life, plus the fact that she doesn't really get Kierkegaard. Because she's a porn star. I dunno.

By: Bora Horza Gobuchul

Bora Horza Gobuchul — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 13:27:46 -0800

Also of note as being against tropes: Asia Carrera (Wikipedia link) has an IQ of 156, twice gave piano recitals at Carnegie Hall as a teenager, and won a full academic scholarship to Rutgers University. Bobbi Star (previous Mefi post) was a professional concert oboist and nationally ranked swimmer.

By: Kandarp Von Bontee

Kandarp Von Bontee — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 13:48:42 -0800

I'm familiar with Bobbi Star's incredible blowing prowess.

By: norabarnacl3

norabarnacl3 — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 13:57:49 -0800

Oh boy now I can snobbily jerk off!

By: trackofalljades

trackofalljades — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 14:20:55 -0800

Kayden Kross (NSFW) and Stoya (previously) aren't stereotypical porn stars. ...so what, exactly, defines someone as a "stereotypical" porn star these days? Perhaps what I'm stumbling with here is porn "star," like, is everyone who's ever done some sex-on-camera a porn "star" in this context? These days, technology being what it is, that would probably include a significant percentage of the population of most college campuses. If not, if we're talking professionals here, how many of them are actually what one might jump to the conclusion to call "stereotypical?" If you're so stereotypical, are you a star at all? Maybe you're just "in porn." The porn industry is in massive collapse right now, with the boom caused by home video now completely eclipsed by the realities of lower barriers to entry (cheaper equipment) and virtually no barrier to distribution at all (hello Internet) not to mention rampant piracy (on a level Hollywood or the RIAA couldn't even figment nightmares about). I'd argue that the only people left in the business that could really be called "stars" at this point are all fairly unique, niche-capturing, rather interesting performers because if they weren't, well, you wouldn't even have heard their name.

By: These Birds of a Feather

These Birds of a Feather — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 14:49:38 -0800

Stoya's the one that's dating James Deen, yeah? I like her, she's cute.

By: yoink

yoink — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:02:52 -0800

Perhaps what I'm stumbling with here is porn "star," like, is everyone who's ever done some sex-on-camera a porn "star" in this context Do we have to work from first principles here? The term means what it commonly means in most English usage: anyone who has performed sex-on-camera professionally gets called a "porn star." So, college kid who has filmed him/herself having sex with a friend? Not a pornstar. Someone who has performed in "Hot Wet Nuns XVIII"? Porn star.

By: strangely stunted trees

strangely stunted trees — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:15:04 -0800

Stoya's the one that's dating James Deen, yeah? I like her, she's cute. I thought James Deen and Joanna Angel were dating? Come to think of it, I guess what constitutes "dating" in the context of a peer group whose jobs are to have sex with each other must be a fairly complicated business, one of those things you have to define as you go along.

By: Fizz

Fizz — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:25:02 -0800

"Hot Wet Nuns XVIII"? Frantically googles.

By: griphus

griphus — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:28:27 -0800

From Griphus's profile: ... I'd just like to make it clear that I did not write that. It's from Woody Allen's short story "The Whore of Mensa."

By: skilar

skilar — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:29:38 -0800

> I'd argue that the only people left in the business that could really be called "stars" at this point are all fairly unique, niche-capturing, rather interesting performers because if they weren't, well, you wouldn't even have heard their name. Agreed, mostly. I think the definition of stereotypical I was using is different than the one you're using, because you could argue, and it seems like you are, that Kayden and Stoya actually are stereotypical porn stars, at least by today's standards. And I agree with you 100%. They're unique and interesting and unlike the girls who came before them, which makes a lot of sense. They're breaking the old stereotypes, though creating a new one in the process. I think the definition of a stereotypical porn star that I was using in the OP isn't based on the reality of what today's stars are like, but instead is based on the idea and collective image of past stars. Not the girls who are popular today, but the ones who were popular in the '90s and '00s. It's not surprising that Kayden and Stoya are unique and interesting, perhaps more "real-seeming" and accessible than the old performers, because that's what people want now. The girls who exhibit the qualities of old porn stars, the old stereotypes, are just "in porn" and aren't necessarily stars. And in 10 or 15 years there'll probably be a resurgence of the old type of porn star, or there'll be a new kind of star and the current stars will be part of the stereotype, or maybe both. tl;dr — I agree with you and should have taken more care in wording the OP. And to clarify, I called them porn stars because Stoya won Best New Starlet at the 2009 AVN Awards and Kayden won Best American Starlet at Hot d'Or in 2009 and Best Actress International at the 2010 Venus Awards.

By: Nomyte

Nomyte — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:32:36 -0800

I just hope that griphus can appropriately compensate me for all that lucrative web traffic I'm driving to his profile and the GriphCo ads that plaster it.

By: griphus

griphus — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:32:56 -0800

Oh, and Sasha Grey "played" Molly in a performance art project that centered around reading the entirety of Neuromancer on stage.

By: griphus

griphus — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:35:16 -0800

CLICK HERE FOR THIS SUBURBAN MOM'S SECRET WEIGHT-LOSS FORMULA OBAMA DOESN'T WANT YOU TO KNOW

By: shakespeherian

shakespeherian — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:37:44 -0800

Guys there's a difference between 'typical' and 'stereotypical' and it's a dumb derail.

By: hellslinger

hellslinger — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:59:42 -0800

One should not be fooled by the ditsy characters that these porn stars play on camera; they might actually be very smart prostitutes fooling us into believing that a lot of what we are seeing is real! But... She recognized one Wallace quote. I guess that very low standard that both men and women hold for them makes that somewhat impressive.

By: seanmpuckett

seanmpuckett — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 16:17:57 -0800

This thread is bizarre and disturbing. Thanks for the links, skillar. Stoya's blog is pretty great, and I would find it so no matter her profession. I like thoughtful stuff on gender and sex positivism and being engaged at life and largely untroubled by the opinions of those who do not matter.

By: jeffburdges

jeffburdges — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 16:33:37 -0800

Your notion of stereotypical porn is nothing by the wo-man trying to keep a sister down.

By: mr. digits

mr. digits — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 16:42:12 -0800

I find that the most bizarre and disturbing part of this thread -- the sole disturbing bit, in fact -- is that someone up top mentioned that another actress was an accomplished competitive swimmer, and yet no one has referenced the breast stroke in a tasteless pun.

By: banished

banished — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 16:50:27 -0800

"KROSS: Your book is literally open on my lap right this moment. Is that awkward? It's always awkward for me when people say the same about my work." The wit, the charm, the self-depreciating humor. I was fine just not being aware of all of that. Her profession be damned. If I ever meet her I'm asking her out.

By: infinitewindow

infinitewindow — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 17:25:17 -0800

To quote Nora Ephron, "In my sex fantasy, nobody ever loves me for my mind."

By: LastOfHisKind

LastOfHisKind — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 18:03:14 -0800

News flash: People who work in the adult film industry are people. Some are really nice, some nasty, some whip smart, some idiots, but they're all people. It's just a job, even if some people don't think of it that way.

By: roger ackroyd

roger ackroyd — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 18:35:25 -0800

I'm always amazed by this parallel world of heterosexual porn stars I know nothing about.

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 19:32:09 -0800

trackofalljades writes "..so what, exactly, defines someone as a 'stereotypical' porn star these days?" The stereotype: dumb/stupid, abused, daddy issues, drug addict, unrealistic or unrepresentative body type, short and foolish. It's not very surprising that the stereotype bares little relation to the reality; stereotypes rarely do.

By: Samizdata

Samizdata — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:18:23 -0800

comes back from a Stoya pic run DAYUM! Literature what? (Been a big fan for a while. Helluva smile and seems, well, real, I guess.)

By: shakespeherian

shakespeherian — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:57:53 -0800

I'm not sure what I was expecting from this thread, but it sure has gotten weird in here.

By: Decani

Decani — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 01:11:54 -0800

Oh boy now I can snobbily jerk off! posted by norabarnacl3 at 9:57 PM on June 17 It's the best way. I find nothing turns me on more than the bitter cognitive dissonance caused by feeling superior to people who are cannily making a living by exploiting my sexual frustrations and inadequacies. That shit is hot.

By: ThatFuzzyBastard

ThatFuzzyBastard — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 07:07:53 -0800

I really hope one of them decides to write a Big Book---like a novel, or an autobio, or a study, or something. Being a porn star kind of gives one a front-row seat at a *lot* of cultural obsessions, and I'd really like to hear something more sustained than these (smart, interesting) blog posts about the view from there.

By: ThatFuzzyBastard

ThatFuzzyBastard — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 07:10:50 -0800

(also---that take-no-shit interview is kind of amazing. It's like P.I.L. on the Tom Snyder show)

By: The Whelk

The Whelk — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 07:25:42 -0800

Storya is one of the few legitimately brilliant people I have ever met.

By: Meatbomb

Meatbomb — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 09:36:53 -0800

So Sasha's Grey number is 0, and she's got a non-zero Bacon number. Getting her into a recording studio doesn't seem too challenging. I wonder how much she's capable of in an academic setting - get her published! I would like some special prize for my new Erdos-Bacon-Sabbath-Grey concept.

By: jeffburdges

jeffburdges — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 09:54:37 -0800

Erdos, Bacon, and Sabbath were all selected because they each have an exceptionally large number collaborators. Can Sasha Grey really claim substantially more distinct collaborators than other major porn stars?

By: griphus

griphus — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:05:41 -0800

She's actually got quite the career outside of the industry. As a single example, she starred in The Girlfriend Experience, which was by Steven Soderbergh, a multiple-academy-award winning director. The last time I can recall something remotely like that happening post-70s was Nina Hartley's cameo in Boogie Nights.

By: symbioid

symbioid — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 11:40:46 -0800

yoink: "Perhaps what I'm stumbling with here is porn "star," like, is everyone who's ever done some sex-on-camera a porn "star" in this context Do we have to work from first principles here? The term means what it commonly means in most English usage: anyone who has performed sex-on-camera professionally gets called a "porn star." So, college kid who has filmed him/herself having sex with a friend? Not a pornstar. Someone who has performed in "Hot Wet Nuns XVIII"? Porn star." Yeah, perhaps. But by XVIII it kind of ran itself thing. The real action was in Hot Wet Nuns IX through Hot Wet Nuns XIII. I would consider those the pinnacle of the series. It took a while to build up to a climax, and the denoument definitely seems to be occurring between XIV and XVIII - I've heard a rumor that XIX is going to be the last one. IMO it should have already been put to rest. Though it did give a good launch to Misty Mountaintops' vivacious career. You can't turn around but two seconds without seeing her face splattered all over the front images of the latest Nasty Crotch Fungus studios...

By: symbioid

symbioid — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 11:41:06 -0800

Thin. Ran itself thin.

By: symbioid

symbioid — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 11:42:23 -0800

Fizz: " "Hot Wet Nuns XVIII"? Frantically googles." I believe that "furiously" is the word you're looking for.

By: symbioid

symbioid — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 11:46:38 -0800

I'm probably 2 degrees of Sasha Grey -- one of my WoW guildies worked on the FX for Pirates 2: Revenge of Stagnetti, which she's in... Well I guess that doesn't really count does it? How intimately does one have to be involved in the production of a film to be one degree away? On set? Performing? Directing? Does digital work on a film count? Well it's kind of nice to know that I'm some fractal dimension somewhat around 2 in a Grey Number, I think.

By: jeffburdges

jeffburdges — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 12:08:49 -0800

I doubt your Bacon number/distance from Sasha Grey requires much intimacy, but yes your Sasha Grey number requires considerably more intimacy. In particular, Kevin Bacon's Sasha Grey numbers vastly exceeds Sasha Grey's Kevin Bacon number.

By: griphus

griphus — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 12:09:39 -0800

Hitler's Bacon number is based on documentary footage, so, uh, that's probably game.

By: IAmBroom

IAmBroom — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:00:36 -0800

hellslinger: But... She recognized one Wallace quote. I guess that very low standard that both men and women hold for them makes that somewhat impressive. So, you haven't RTFA/WTFV yet. Gotcha. And, that certainly entitles you to accuse us of misogyny.

By: Meatbomb

Meatbomb — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:48:29 -0800

Can Sasha Grey really claim substantially more distinct collaborators than other major porn stars? I guess not. She was picked because of the higher possibility of actually generating a not-infinite Erdos-Bacon-Sabbath-Grey number, and because she has quite a high profile for non-porn people.

By: jeffburdges

jeffburdges — Tue, 19 Jun 2012 02:31:42 -0800

I'm comfortable with the argument that Sasha Grey's higher profile earns her the position. It appears that Sasha Grey's 270 adult films exceeds most bisexual porn actors, although Lexi Belle has 364. We should pick a bisexual porn actor to give everyone equal access to low numbers. Ron Jeremy has 2098 films, but isn't listed as bisexual.

By: skilar

skilar — Wed, 20 Jun 2012 19:56:12 -0800

Kayden Kross just had a story published by Harper Perennial in their new collection called Forty Stories.