Comments on: The thrillsville of it all...

The thrillsville of it all...

zarq — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:55:41 -0800

Gay Talese's "Frank Sinatra Has A Cold" appeared in Esquire Magazine in April 1966. Sinatra had turned down interview requests from Esquire for years and refused to be interviewed for the profile. Rather than give up, Talese spent the three months following and observing the man and interviewing any members of his entourage who were willing to speak -- and the final story was published without Sinatra's cooperation or blessing. In 2003, editors pronounced it the best article the magazine had ever published. Nieman Storyboard interviewed Talese last month about the piece and has annotated it with his comments.

"In fewer than 15,000 words Mr Talese managed to capture the man, the music, the life, the actor, the style, not to mention the booze, broads, brawls, the spills and, as the man himself might have said, the thrillsville of it all." Additional background from Wikipedia. Author and Journalist Tom Wolfe dubbed Gay Talese the founder of a "New Journalism," in which narrative literary techniques are incorporated into a journalist's reporting. "I respected [news writers] because they got it right, but I didn't want to emulate them in any way because they were boring," Talese said. "It is getting it right, and then being a storyteller. And that means you have to have characters." Also from Nieman Storyboard: Why is this so good? More New Yorker: Notes from Underground The Paris Review: Gay Talese, The Art of Nonfiction No. 2. They also have his outline for the story, written on a shirt board. NPR (2003): Slate founding editor Michael Kinsley interviews Talese for Day to Day (audio) Big Think: Gay Talese and New Journalism

By: mykescipark

mykescipark — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:00:06 -0800

Gay Talese on KCRW's Strangers.

By: MCMikeNamara

MCMikeNamara — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:03:41 -0800

Thanks for posting this. I wanted to do a post worthy of it, but I, amusingly, have a cold and since I think Gay Telese is just about the best, I didn't want to mess it up. The shirt board especially is just beautiful.

By: zarq

zarq — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:10:00 -0800

Heh. You're very welcome. :) And I hope you feel better. MCMikeNamara: " The shirt board especially is just beautiful." Isn't it? You can zoom a little closer into the image here. The full thing (it has a left side that's missing!) is here.

By: zarq

zarq — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:10:29 -0800

Also, a link I missed on the main post: "Gay Talese has a Coke*: reflections of a narrative legend, in conversation with Esquire's Chris Jones"

By: exogenous

exogenous — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:14:24 -0800

Great stuff but those unclosed brackets in the annotation are driving me crazy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ahh, that's better.

By: three blind mice

three blind mice — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:17:52 -0800

For Frank Sinatra was now involved with many things involving many people -- his own film company, his record company, his private airline, his missile-parts firm, his real-estate holdings across the nation, his personal staff of seventy-five -- which are only a portion of the power he is and has come to represent. His missile parts firm?

By: Senor Cardgage

Senor Cardgage — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:23:31 -0800

This is a wonderful read. Frank, particularly in that era, is a fascinating and at times puzzling figure. I havent much to add to this, but one of my favorite songs of the last year is Ben Fold's "On Being Frank", a somber tale told from the point of view of Frank's longtime personal assistant.

By: Bulgaroktonos

Bulgaroktonos — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:24:08 -0800

His missile parts firm? That's certainly his reputation.

By: MCMikeNamara

MCMikeNamara — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:26:16 -0800

three blind mice: "His missile parts firm?" Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it just says a lot about the World that Was in 1966 that that would be included as part of an explanation of Sinatra's wide ranging empire but not really require an explanation beyond that.

By: exogenous

exogenous — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:28:10 -0800

My favorite Sinatra story is his meeting with Mario Puzo.

By: MartinWisse

MartinWisse — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:30:35 -0800

Cameo appearance by Harlan Ellison (who gets schooled by Sinatra).

By: elizardbits

elizardbits — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:37:42 -0800

(As a sort of aside, this is odd because I vaguely remember another FPP about the "greatest Esquire stories ever published" and I don't remember it being the same list. I can't find the post, though.) And YES, the Harlan Ellison part was great, especially the description of the outfit to which Sinatra objected.

By: mykescipark

mykescipark — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:43:07 -0800

I seem to recall Harlan Ellison talking about his side of the story recently when he spoke at Cinefamily here in L.A. a while back. I recorded the whole thing, so I'll have to see if my memory serves me well...

By: ThatFuzzyBastard

ThatFuzzyBastard — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:52:10 -0800

I love that Ellison was being a punk even then, even to a dude who could have had him dumped in the harbor with a gesture.

By: tilde

tilde — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:56:47 -0800

I read the original piece through longform a while back - nice to see the annotations. Interesting look back at the situation, glimpse into his process. Now I'm anxious to see the one he's been gestating for 30 years ...

By: Naberius

Naberius — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:00:12 -0800

I'm pretty sure Harlan Ellison talks about his side of all stories whenever the opportunity presents itself. The scariest thing that ever happened to me was one Christmas when I was off at relatives' for the holiday and called to check my voice mail and there's a message from Harlan Ellison saying "we have to talk, young man," and leaving a number. I'd done a list piece for an SF media magazine about various projects that never got out of development hell, and the editor didn't want it to be all movies and TV shows, so to get something more literary in there he had me add Ellison's long awaited but never quite released anthology project "Last Dangerous Visions." It was just a five line blurb and didn't stick even a toe beyond the most obvious, public facts about the book, but it still caught his eye and there was that damn message. Hell no, I didn't call him back. I'd seen the guy once, at a convention, when he had like 90 minutes to fill and started off by going, "I'm sure you've all got plenty of questions" and a picosecond later, some plant yelled "Tell us about X!" and Ellison joyously spent the whole damn panel going off about X. X in this case being some fandom figure whose name I don't recall, but it was someone Ellison had long been feuding with, and this person had-again if I recall correctly-gotten in some trouble in Arizona or someplace involving underage boys at a pool party. Ellison gloated with a gloaty glee that was frankly somewhat terrifying - wholly apart from the fact that this wasn't really what a packed room most wanted to know about the experiences of Harlan Ellison. I wasn't diving into that without a protective suit on. So instead I called my editor and apparently my editor's wife, who was a long time friend of Ellison's, called up and basically told him, "Harlan, leave that kid alone. You know damn well he didn't say a single thing that wasn't true." And that was, thankfully, the end of that.

By: MCMikeNamara

MCMikeNamara — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:11:41 -0800

I think that's the only Harlan Ellison story I've ever heard with a happy ending.

By: bondcliff

bondcliff — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:36:01 -0800

For example, when one of his men brought him a frankfurter with catsup on it, which Sinatra apparently abhors, he angrily threw the bottle at the man, splattering catsup all over him. As it should be.

By: ChuckRamone

ChuckRamone — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:00:24 -0800

What about that Sinatra-penned letter that was on Antiques Roadshow? That was pretty funny.

By: thelonius

thelonius — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:09:01 -0800

The best Sinatra story is the time Tony Clifton schooled him

By: Xalf

Xalf — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:16:10 -0800

Sinatra was never a slum kid, never in jail, always well-dressed. He had so many pants that some people in Hoboken called him "Slacksey O'Brien."

By: grubi

grubi — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:23:51 -0800

Man, what an odd name. I mean, just weird. What kind of man is named "Talese"?

By: mr. digits

mr. digits — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 14:04:22 -0800

An Italian-American.

By: mr. digits

mr. digits — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 14:05:37 -0800

(with a father of southern Italian origin)

By: mr. digits

mr. digits — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 14:09:09 -0800

It occurs to me that there may've been some humor that I passed over in your query, grubi. In my own defense, I'm just home from work and have not yet decompressed.

By: letitrain

letitrain — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 14:21:18 -0800

exogenous, that link is solid gold:

Time has mercifully dimmed the humiliation of what followed. Sinatra started to shout abuse. I remember that, contrary to his reputation, he did not use foul language at all. The worst thing he called me was a pimp. I do remember him saying that if it wasn't that I was so much older than he, he would beat the hell out of me. What hurt was that here he was, a northern Italian, threatening me, a southern Italian, with physical violence. This was roughly equivalent to Einstein pulling a knife on Al Capone. It just wasn't done.

By: La Cieca

La Cieca — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 14:37:40 -0800

MartinWisse Sinatra bashes The Oscar, a film Ellison wrote, and Ellison shoots back it hasn't even been released yet, and Sinatra repeats, "It's a piece of crap." But to me the really bizarre part of this exchange is that Sinatra is in The Oscar. It's just a cameo and unbilled, but it's an important scene. The encounter between Ellison and Sinatra took place in November 1965 and the film was released in March 1966, so either Sinatra had already filmed his scene or else would film it in the next few weeks. By the way, Sinatra was right about The Oscar. It is indeed a piece of crap.

By: MCMikeNamara

MCMikeNamara — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:01:24 -0800

I've always wondered about the truth of that too. Fact is, Sinatra probably could have seen it -- or at least an early cut. But also wouldn't have Ellison known that? I guess, though, neither one of them are known for their cool logical heads when it comes to conflict, so maybe I'm over-thinking this.

By: DirtyOldTown

DirtyOldTown — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:08:18 -0800

The best Sinatra story I've heard was about a time he was in a club where he was a regular and would frequently come with his entire entourage and drop thousands of dollars, back when that was incomprehensible money. A waiter tripped and dropped an entire tray of crystal glasses. The manager came out and started yelling at him, telling him he was fired. The guy pleaded for his job, he'd been there a long time, he had a family, etc. Sinatra saw the altercation and waved the manager over. "How much did those glasses cost?" The manager told him. Sinatra calmly peeled off twice that amount in crisp $100 bills. "Have that waiter bring out another tray?" The manager complied. Sinatra snapped his fingers and pointed at the floor. "Break 'em." The manager was aghast. "If I ever come back and that waiter's lost his job, my friends and I will take our money elsewhere and you'll never see us again. Understand?" Maybe it's because I waited tables entirely too long in my life, but that makes him fucking Batman as far as I'm concerned.

By: DirtyOldTown

DirtyOldTown — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:13:41 -0800

Ah, wait a minute. here's the complete story. I had it mostly right. Great story, though.

By: neroli

neroli — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:16:45 -0800

Ellison has talked about not seeing The Oscar until the premiere, so it is actually possible that Sinatra (who could probably do anything he wanted) had seen it and Ellison hadn't. Although it's funnier to assume he was just being an asshole. The private club, by the way, is the the Daisy, a place that figures prominently in much 60s - 70s Hollywood lore. It was owned by Jack Hanson, a former baseball player who made his fortune with Jax Slacks, those tight pants that Marilyn Monroe and others popularized. Nicole Brown was a waitress at the Daisy --- that's where she met O.J.

By: grubi

grubi — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:21:04 -0800

It occurs to me that there may've been some humor that I passed over in your query, grubi. In my own defense, I'm just home from work and have not yet decompressed. I was trying to be silly, yes. Kind of making fun of people who might make fun of Mr Talese's first name. But no biggie.

By: grubi

grubi — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:32:52 -0800

(with a father of southern Italian origin) My grandfather (and his family) were plenty Southern Italian, too. Pudgy little Neapolitan. And I look like him, apparently.

By: thelonius

thelonius — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:57:57 -0800

Sinatra snapped his fingers and pointed at the floor. "Break 'em." This was a very Augustan thing to do. At least the waiter wasn't going to be fed to eels.

By: Omnomnom

Omnomnom — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 16:16:57 -0800

He sounds like an asshole in that article.

By: Omnomnom

Omnomnom — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 16:17:53 -0800

(Um, the article in the first link.)

By: exogenous

exogenous — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 16:20:36 -0800

Funny thing, Mario Puzo dismissing Frank Sinatra as a "northern Italian" while Talese's article refers to Sinatra as Sicilian. Maybe Sinatra's mother being from northern Italy was sufficient for Puzo, despite Sinatra's Sicilian father.

By: gimonca

gimonca — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 16:48:36 -0800

His missile parts firm? Previously

By: PinkMoose

PinkMoose — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 17:39:57 -0800

i wonder if an impressionistic, strange, 15k word article like this will ever be published again, gay talese is a genius but that space and the money just doesn't exist anymore.

By: flippant

flippant — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 18:03:32 -0800

Well, PinkMoose, it seems that a lot of (mostly online) publications are focussing more on longform journalism these days. I do hope something with this amount of artistic license—but attributed quotes—will be written and published again. There is definitely a market for it.

By: dhartung

dhartung — Wed, 09 Oct 2013 03:27:35 -0800

His missile parts firm? Biographies indicate it was named Titanium Metal [Forming], but all I can find for that is Sinatra-related drive-by references and this business profile, status suspended (the age is right). In 1967 it was located in Burbank (naturally) and its president, one William E. Barcoff, had been "recognized by the Secretary of the Air Force for his volunteer ...." and that's how Google News Archive usually works. But I'm intrigued that it may all be a typo and they really mean Titanium Metals Corp. which is still around as TIMET. Although it's now a NH-based subsidiary of something else, it used to be headquartered in Nevada, and definitely had aerospace connections, with USAF contracts from 1955. I'm sure it was one of those things like the line in The Graduate about "plastics" -- "titanium, Frank, titanium".

By: Halloween Jack

Halloween Jack — Wed, 09 Oct 2013 05:39:56 -0800

i wonder if an impressionistic, strange, 15k word article like this will ever be published again I dunno about anything that long, but this article seems to be what Tom Junod has based almost his entire career around.

By: bukvich

bukvich — Wed, 09 Oct 2013 05:42:23 -0800

It has been awhile since I read Talese's piece and I had forgotten Sinatra was bald. I had not forgotten that he comported himself as a big tough goon although google claims he was 5 foot 8 inches tall. Mia Farrow claims in interview with Vanity Fair that her 25-year-old son Ronan may be Frank Sinatra's rather than Woody Allen's.

By: flug

flug — Wed, 09 Oct 2013 07:53:28 -0800

The Silent Season of a Hero (Dimaggio profile) and a variety of other essays and articles by Talese.

By: blucevalo

blucevalo — Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:40:52 -0800

That is indeed one of the top 10 if not the best magazine articles ever written -- for so many reasons -- and makes me anachronistically nostalgic (I was still crapping in my diapers when it came out) for the combination of suave drollery and bigger-than-life amazeballs that nothing nowadays, no matter how well-researched and well-written, can touch. Just read the first paragraph to yourself out loud about half a dozen times and come back and tell me if you can think of any article written in the past 10, 20, 30 years that's that goddamn evocative.

By: Rhomboid

Rhomboid — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 00:39:30 -0800

What weird timing. I was just reading about the cancellation of two Hillary Clinton TV biopic projects which lead me to Ron Rosenbaum's article extolling the virtues of the write-around, which mentions the Sinatra piece.