Comments on: De-segregating our schools

De-segregating our schools

roomthreeseventeen — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 11:07:53 -0800

In May, the New York City Council passed the "School Diversity Accountability Act", which requires the city to "provide detailed demographic data & steps it is taking to advance diversity in NYC schools" and Resolution 453, which calls on the NYC Department of Education to establish diversity as a priority in admissions, zoning, and other decision-making processes. Education advocates are re-drawing district maps, and creating experiments which "range from developing specific diversity quotas for individual schools to redrawing school district lines to better reflect racial and economic diversity."

In 2014, The Civil Rights Project published a report (pdf) detailing New York's extreme school segregation problems.

By: zarq

zarq — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 11:25:43 -0800

...the city to "provide detailed demographic data & steps it is taking to advance diversity in NYC schools" Interestingly enough, the demographic data already existed and was publicly available, in many cases going back 3 or 4 years. Schools in the NYC system can be found on schools.nyc.gov. So for example, here's one public school I attended as a kid: P.S. 215. Click the statistics page and look at the School Quality Guide (pdf) for demographics. Most schools also have a register link which displays similar demographic data in html tables and pie graphs. That particular school has the following info: Total Student Population: 931 Gender Female:473/ 50.81% Male: 458/ 49.19% Ethnicity HISPANIC:238 /25.56% AMER. INDIAN OR ALASKAN NATIVE: 10 / 1.07% ASIAN: 207/ 22.23% BLACK: 29 /3.11% WHITE: 439/ 47.15% MULTI-RACIAL: 8 /0.86% English Language Learners (ELL) ELL: 150/ 16.11% Special Education General Ed: 848 /91.08% Least Restrictive Environment: 54 /5.80% Most Restrictive Environment: 29 /3.11% -- Comparatively, this is a demographic snapshot of the entire school system: Total Student Population 1,024,280 School Level Elementary Schools: 542,712 / 52.98% High Schools: 260,795 /25.46% Middle Schools: 197,025 / 19.24% Special Education Schools : 23,748 /2.32% Gender Female: 496,463 /48.47% Male: 527,817 /51.53% Ethnicity Not Reported: 2,522 /0.25% HISPANIC: 416,146 /40.63% AMER. INDIAN OR ALASKAN NATIVE: 8,992 /0.88% ASIAN: 165,668 /16.17% NATIVE HAWAIIAN/OTHER PACIFIC ISLANDER: 4,974 /0.49% BLACK: 258,912 /25.28% WHITE: 159,890 /15.61% MULTI-RACIAL: 7,176 /0.70% English Language Learners (ELL) ELL: 143,214 /13.98% Special Education General Ed: 910,176 /88.86% Least Restrictive Environment: 58,870 /5.75% Most Restrictive Environment: 55,234 /5.39% They have the data. Should be interesting to see what they do with it.

By: rebent

rebent — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 11:27:55 -0800

this is exciting! It is progress that I am happy to see. I read online somewhere (anyone know?) that schools are actually MORE segregated today than they were back in the 60s.

By: zarq

zarq — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:12:44 -0800

rebent: background.

By: lownote

lownote — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:18:30 -0800

This is really cool and hopeful

By: layceepee

layceepee — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:19:45 -0800

Advocates in certain neighborhoods — on the Upper West Side and Harlem, the Lower East Side, and Prospect Heights, Brooklyn — are promoting a system called controlled choice, where parents can still assert their preferences but the district administration ensures that each school's enrollment reflects the community's overall diversity. I wonder what the meaning of the word "community" is here. Many of New York City's neighborhoods are themselves segregated by race and (especially) by class, so there is no overall diversity to reflect if "community" is being defined at the label of the neighborhood. It's also not clear how the "controlled choice" system works. Can anyone who has experience with it explain how, starting from a system that's largely segregated, and with the best-performing schools often among the most highly segregated, you can deliver the choices parents want and still achieve more diverse schools?

By: roomthreeseventeen

roomthreeseventeen — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:25:58 -0800

Article on controlled choice: Utilizing an algorithm, criteria like a student's socioeconomic, English Language Learner and special needs statuses are weighted equally alongside their home address.

By: layceepee

layceepee — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:03:18 -0800

Thanks roomthreeseventeen. But now I'm even more confused. According to the article, Under the current system, in every district except a few, students who live in a geographical zone are given priority for schools in that area. But then it says In District 3 the divisions between schools are stark. While 66 percent of the district is made up of black and Latino students, at many schools less than 30 percent of the population are students of color. Why can't the students of color get into the majority white schools in the district if geography is prioritized? Is it that the "geographical zone" described is smaller than the district? Is there a system of drawing school zones within districts that manipulated like voting districts are gerrymandered to carve out majority white schools in districts where people of color are the majority? Then the article described "controlled choice" as utilizing an algorithm, criteria like a student's socioeconomic, English Language Learner and special needs statuses are weighted equally alongside their home address. That seems promising, but where does the choice, controlled or not, come in?

By: JPD

JPD — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 14:53:34 -0800

yes, the geographical zones are much smaller than the districts. The zones aren't especially gerrymandered. Its people who are gerrymandered. And then the school zones reinforce that. And rents. Pricing for housing in NYC is pretty efficient around schools. Like a block zoned for a good school prices higher than a neighboring block not zoned into an well regarded school. You can see here how small the zones are. At the elementary level no matter what they say something that is busing like is inevitable - even if they call it "controlled choice". I mean if that makes people less pissed off about it I guess that's good.

By: JPD

JPD — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 14:56:41 -0800

If you think about it, the logic makes a ton of sense. Spread the parents who have the time and money to be active across all of the schools and the average goes up, because the marginal return to having 50% of parents like that compare to having 20%, is quite small. Or whatever that number is. But in a way you are calling those people's bluff on going to the burbs or to private school. Also the diversity issue is way way way worse in the burbs, and for legal reasons that's a virtually impossible nut to crack.

By: ethnomethodologist

ethnomethodologist — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 15:18:48 -0800

Now do cities like Gary where more than 95% of the student body is African American. The very idea that NYC schools are the worst examples of school segregation in the US is absurd- the fact that OP went to a public school that had a massively Asian and a relatively tiny African American student tells me that s/he is/was one economically and culturally advantaged person and that NYC schools have nowhere near the segregation you see in the rust belt. I repeat: Now do cities like Gary. Tell me how to desegregate my own high school, Hammond HS in Hammond Indiana, which today is not even 8% white.

By: MattD

MattD — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 17:02:21 -0800

JPD, that objective will not be achieved. There are only a relative handful of "zoned" (as opposed to selective) public schools in the city to which parents with time and money will send their children. These schools have in common that they are geographically very close (as in, a walk of a few minutes) from their homes and are seen by parents as having a workable minority (at least) of fellow parents like themselves to support PTA activities, provide enough grade-level or accelerated students to support suitable instruction, etc. While some of these schools have the demographics of upscale suburbs (PS 6, for example) many enroll a majority of students from high-needs circumstances, just not an overwhelming majority. Tell most of those parents that they need to go to a school much farther away, where their child might be the only one in his or her class from an intact educated family, and they will simply decline. If they can't get into a selective public program, they'll put their kids into private schools, or moved into the (redrawn) boundaries of a more suitable school. And the parents who aren't told they have to change schools, but instead have their own school lose its critical mass of peer parents, they'll move or go private, too.

By: ArbitraryAndCapricious

ArbitraryAndCapricious — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 17:16:14 -0800

From the Slate article:

But this policy amalgam has proved to be a successful desegregation tool in dozens of cities across the country, including Montclair, New Jersey

Oh, that's interesting! My friends chose to move to Montclair, rather than some other suburb, specifically because they didn't want their kids to go to segregated schools, and they liked the way that Montclair does school assignments. On the other hand, they report there's still a lot of residential segregation, and it's a little uncomfortable to note the difference between their kids' very diverse school and their not-especially-diverse neighborhood. But they're really delighted with their kids' school, and they like the way the system works. I'll have to ask them what they think of the idea of using that system in the city, which is a pretty different beast in a lot of ways.

By: JPD

JPD — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 17:23:53 -0800

Montclair trades at a discount to surrounding nabes that have better "read: whiter" schools

By: Octaviuz

Octaviuz — Tue, 21 Jul 2015 05:16:26 -0800

Now do cities like Gary. Tell me how to desegregate my own high school, Hammond HS in Hammond Indiana, which today is not even 8% white. Long term? SCOTUS needs to revisit the Milliken decision (which said cross-district desegregation cannot be imposed). Districts can still choose to establish such plans (though it's hard to see why rich, white districts would participate without some coercion), they just can't be mandated by the court. In the short term, more metropolitan areas need to look into either large-scale consolidation of districts or at least something like the Omaha Learning Community, a metropolitan federation of districts which pools funding and permits some limited cross-border enrollment for students.

By: Octaviuz

Octaviuz — Tue, 21 Jul 2015 05:37:41 -0800

Montclair trades at a discount to surrounding nabes that have better "read: whiter" schools That reminds me of my unpleasant feeling about the role of Realtors (TM) in residential segregation. Racial steering (sending people only to neighborhoods of their own race) is illegal (though it still occurs). But descriptions of "good schools" etc in listings have much less to do with the quality of education than with racial signalling, and everyone knows this (but, since it's factually correct, it can't be restricted).

By: jb

jb — Tue, 21 Jul 2015 05:59:08 -0800

Housing desegregation is probably the only way to desegregate schools. That means some kind of government action: subsidized housing, setting rent/price caps, promoting affordable housing. But no one is actually interested in desegregating housing or schools.

By: jb

jb — Tue, 21 Jul 2015 06:01:56 -0800

Oh - and work to reduce inequality already (which is the arterial wound that the bandaid of school integration can't stem).

By: Octaviuz

Octaviuz — Tue, 21 Jul 2015 06:07:58 -0800

The new HUD rules suggest the federal government might be trying to stop actively making things worse. That would be something.

By: roomthreeseventeen

roomthreeseventeen — Tue, 21 Jul 2015 06:16:38 -0800

the fact that OP went to a public school that had a massively Asian and a relatively tiny African American student tells me that s/he is/was one economically and culturally advantaged person and that NYC schools have nowhere near the segregation you see in the rust belt. Are ou talking about me as the OP? My school did not have a massive Asian population. And I didn't grow up in NYC.