Comments on: Tall, tan, young, lovely - and strange

Tall, tan, young, lovely - and strange

rongorongo — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 03:42:59 -0800

Composer Adam Neely looks at how the world's second most covered song came to be seen as a national cultural icon, as kitsch elevator music and as a work of daunting harmonic complexity - all at the same time (and as to why it matters culturally whether you play it in F or D flat): The Girl from Ipanema is a far weirder song that you thought.

Notable performances: João Gilberto, Tom Jobim, Vinicius de Moraes give the song its first musical outing, in their neighbourhood bar back in 1962 1963 and Pery Ribiero makes the first commercial recording (in G!) Also 1963 Stan Getz and Joao Gilberto make maybe the canonical recording - in D flat with a blues influenced contra-melody. Getz co-opts his English speaking wife to take on a verse. Who knows, it might make her famous. 1965 - It does! This rendition features Astrid Gilberto a little more prominently. Frank Sinatra's version - in F spreads - makes the song even more well known internationally. 1977 and a group of students from Berklee college publish "The Real Book" with chord structures of jazz standards. Their version of The Girl from Ipanema - which missed out the counter-melody, served as a template for many insipid covers. 1977 - The Girl from Ipanema goes disco; of course she does. Production by Vincent Montana. 1980 - Life slows down for The Blues Brothers in an elevator. Elon Musk uses the same trick as the astronauts ride the elevator to Space X in 2020 (I believe this is the full muzak version if you would like to recreate). 2009 - Prefer a boy from Ipanema? - Diana Krall has you covered. 2016 Tom Jobim and João Gilberto are re-united to perform their song - with its original introduction. 2011: Stevie Wonder covers the song in F for Americans and in D flat for a Rio audience. 2016 and Tom Jobim's son, Daniel takes to the piano - as supermodel Gisele Bündchen takes to the catwalk. Opening of the Rio Olympics. And finally 75 year old Heloísa Pinheiro continues to be the most authentic Girl from Ipanema - Jobim and Gilberto wrote the song about her back when she was 17. In 2001 she won a court case raised by the song's copyright holders - to allow her to describe herself as The Girl from Ipanema - since it was her who inspired the song. Previously on Metafilter: 2006 - 46 Covers of the song, 2012 - The-Most-Popular-Girl-In-The-World-Turns-50, 2018 - RIP Norman Gimbel who gave the song its English lyrics.

By: Slothrup

Slothrup — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 04:44:59 -0800

I watched this yesterday and thought "this would make a good Metafilter post" but didn't feel like I had the time to do it justice. Thanks, rongorongo!

By: Naberius

Naberius — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 05:30:27 -0800

Incomplete without the Kompressor version...

By: Grangousier

Grangousier — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 05:38:35 -0800

I had to learn it for a wedding last year. I'm certain he covers this, but I was surprised to realise that a lot of it is basically Take the A Train.

By: jomato

jomato — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 06:31:40 -0800

Astrud Gilberto.

By: Nancy Lebovitz

Nancy Lebovitz — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 06:34:41 -0800

Thanks. I bet there are other transcription errors in The Real Book. Any recommendations for sources or discussion?

By: Nancy Lebovitz

Nancy Lebovitz — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 06:43:00 -0800

So I did a search, and here's a detailed recommendation to just not use The Real Book.

By: thelonius

thelonius — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 06:46:37 -0800

Yes there has been quite an Internet jazzbro consensus against the Real Book. I don't know, people have to start somewhere.

By: thelonius

thelonius — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 07:06:52 -0800

Who cares what key a song is performed in? Singers?

By: Naberius

Naberius — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 07:15:41 -0800

Who cares what key a song is performed in? It sounds like Branford Marsalis.

By: thelonius

thelonius — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 07:33:17 -0800

Well, evidently Brazilians care about this song and D Flat. Maybe you don't think they should, OK, but they do.

By: vacapinta

vacapinta — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 07:36:16 -0800

Thanks for this post! This song has a special place in my heart. A friend and I used to play this, the Getz/Gilberto recording, on regular rotation when I lived in Manhattan in the mid 90's along with other Jobim and Ivan Lins, Chico Buarque, Waldir Azevedo. Years later, we have ignited old memories through these same songs. And years later I met and fell in love and married a Portuguese girl and soon after learned the language, the same language from this music (or close enough!) and so here is this song again, familiar to everyone true but also for me a constant emotional refrain.

By: jonathanhughes

jonathanhughes — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 07:39:17 -0800

Aside from D minor being the saddest of all keys, changing the key can indeed change the overall feel of the song, depending on what instruments are being played — especially when it's over a wide range. A key change might limit (or allow) the use of open strings on a guitar, which would radically change the voicing of chords. If the guitar is being played solo and providing the low end, a key change might restrict the use of the lowest string. Changing a key for horn players might mean that a certain sections of a song need to be played an octave up or down to fit within the range of the instrument. If you're just talking about piano accompaniment for vocals, yeah, it doesn't matter much of the key changes a little. For most other instruments, it totally does.

By: thelonius

thelonius — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 07:42:46 -0800

By: xigxag

xigxag — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 07:42:52 -0800

Astrud Gilberto. *Asterisk Gilbraltar?

By: macross city flaneur

macross city flaneur — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 07:43:13 -0800

Adam Neely is amazing and has reawakened my interest in music theory after many years. The thing about keys is that talking about what key a song is technically "in" is only the beginning of a very complex story, especially with a song like Girl From Ipanema. What Adam does so well is break down the complex cultural cross-currents and even politics embedded in the way keys are voiced. There's a fascinating story and many lessons here about appropriation, class, music education, and by the end, the nature of poetry. And Adam Neely tells them all. His channel, and this video in particular, is just a gem.

By: xigxag

xigxag — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 07:46:17 -0800

I'm not adding anything to this conversation. To the contrary, asking the question (albeit disagreeably) has led to a fruitful conversation of why the key change matters.

By: kaibutsu

kaibutsu — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:12:22 -0800

Oh man, now i reaaaaally want to see orfeo negro... Those excerpts look amazing.

By: ardgedee

ardgedee — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:14:19 -0800

I have and have heard both the Gilberto/Getz and the Sinatra versions many times. The Gilberto/Getz versions (that's right, there are a couple on record) have a kind of languid wistfulness. The canonical Sinatra version sounds like a stagey sort of melancholia. This has a lot more to do with the arrangements and their respective performance styles than the differences in key, but the Sinatra version feels as if the key and tempo are mismatched: either the pitch is too high or the beat is too slow.

By: travelingthyme

travelingthyme — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:16:21 -0800

[A few comments deleted at poster's request.]

By: JanetLand

JanetLand — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:20:32 -0800

I have always loved the Gilberto/Getz version (must try it with the Cachaça!), but "Each day when she walks to the sea/She looks straight ahead not at he" has also always made the grammar demon in me twitch. Anyway, great post, thanks.

By: terrapin

terrapin — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:23:38 -0800

[A few comments deleted at poster's request.] Making for some very confusing discussion above. Wish these mod updates were at the beginning so I don't spend time scrolling looking for quoted material that doesn't exist anymore.

By: Gelatin

Gelatin — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:26:19 -0800

By: EmpressCallipygos

EmpressCallipygos — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:27:28 -0800

In my last apartment, I lived one floor below a jazz guitarist - whether he was professional or amateur was something I never found out. I only know that he was a jazz guitarist because he would play a lot. Fortunately he was good; unfortunately, though, when he was trying to practice and/or learn a new song, he would play it on a continual 90-minute loop, a couple times a day, every day until he was sure he had it. The three weeks it took for him to learn Girl from Ipanema nearly drove me insane.

By: rongorongo

rongorongo — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:37:09 -0800

As others have pointed out, choice of key is an interesting musical question. But it is also one of cultural hegemony. Musicians know that they can transpose a song into any key but they usually wont for a potent combination of respect for the writer and laziness : transposition is hard. If your singer winces at the written key - then find another song (or another singer). Songs written in tricky looking keys often get cast aside by less able players (and sought out by others) -they key segued into particular other songs on set lists. So key matters in this respect. Jobim and de Moraes wrote their song in D flat for whatever reasons their own. Sinatra shifted it up to F for his reasons. It turns out that most popular transcriptions went on to follow Sinatra rather than the original composers - and that is remarkable; we normally follow the lead of the composer.

By: thelonius

thelonius — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:40:55 -0800

Fun fact: In one of his published diaries, poet Jim Carroll mentioned meeting a woman in New York who claimed it was "a matter of record" that she (or perhaps her daughter, I forget) was the person "Girl from Ipanema" was written about. I went to a poetry reading by him one; the best part were the stories he'd interrupt himself with, like Salvador Dali stealing a cab from him. But I do not remember that one.

By: fimbulvetr

fimbulvetr — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:44:23 -0800

Anyone else have this song stuck in their head now? I should have known better than to listen to an earworm in the morning.... this is going to be a long day.

By: Nancy Lebovitz

Nancy Lebovitz — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:45:46 -0800

thelonius, it's possible that people would do well to learn by ear.

By: BozoBurgerBonanza

BozoBurgerBonanza — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:48:40 -0800

For Solid-One-Love: Ipanema Rap, introduced by Gerry Todd, and performed by Rick Moranis.

By: The_Vegetables

The_Vegetables — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:58:28 -0800

I wish that list of 46 versions worked, because I have a version with the artist labeled as Pizzicato 5 but it's not that version (thankfully). Also I miss elevator/supermarket music when it used to be instrumental versions of soft classics like The Girl from Ipanema.

By: signal

signal — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:59:28 -0800

First night in Rio, two years ago, we took a taxi from our Copacabana hotel to Ipanema and walked around. Ended up at the Restaurante Garota de Ipanema, which the establishment claims is where de Moraes and Jobim are supposed to have written the song. Regardless, it was by far the best Picanha we had on a whole trip of great Picanha. I kept humming and half singing the song to myself for the rest of the trip, to the mild annoyance of my wife and son.

By: thelonius

thelonius — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:59:43 -0800

thelonius, it's possible that people would do well to learn by ear. Right, this is one of their major points, and they are right. But a beginning student is going to have a very very hard time hearing the changes from most jazz performances. I think the first jazz album I bought was Miles Davis' E.S.P; in a thousand years I wouldn't have been able to listen to the first bar of the first song of that and say oh, that's an E7 altered chord. Should I have tried instead of just looking it up? Yes, that would have been good. Maybe I could have heard that it was some kind of dominant chord with some weird notes added, and that would have been a moment of growth. But instead, I found a lead sheet and had no idea what an altered chord meant, and had to try to find out. The argument from the post you linked seems to be that this kind of initial learning process is OK, but what is bad is just stopping there and not working on hearing that sound and knowing how to respond to it, and just remaining dependent on seeing a lead sheet with "E7 alt" written out to play it. And that a lot of people do in fact do that. (It's interesting to bring up a Wayne Shorter tune, because another of his standards, "Footprints", is notoriously not what the Real Book says it is, harmonically, at the turnaround. Shorter has always been pretty cagey about what the "right" chords are there, too.)

By: polymodus

polymodus — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 09:04:23 -0800

Is there a piano solo score for this song? That is accessible for a classical player who, um, can't chord or improvise? The author of the video basically says the Real Book version lacks a certain harmonic complexity.

By: thecjm

thecjm — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 09:07:57 -0800

I'm reminded of the Pizzicato Five version when watching this video because much like Neely gave the vocals a VHS-like distortion to imply their dilution via covers, key shifts, and the Real Book, Pizzicato Five made the chorus sound like it was coming from a transistor radio, giving the song sound like a glimpse of another place with a dreamy and far-away quality.

By: thelonius

thelonius — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 09:10:18 -0800

People definitely have published books with that kind of thing, polymodus, detailed score arrangements of jazz standards, but I am sorry to say I don't know which of them are supposed to be good.

By: grumpybear69

grumpybear69 — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 09:21:43 -0800

@polymodus: this appears to be a legit transcription of the original guitar part.

By: grumpybear69

grumpybear69 — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 09:29:36 -0800

And what is interesting about the transcription is that, when you play it on guitar, it becomes clear that the changes and voicings are driven largely by what is idiomatic to the instrument itself. Also it is worth noting that, on guitar, the number of flats or sharps in a key signature doesn't really matter, especially when you aren't relying on open strings. On the piano, however, it does, because the piano is a C-centric instrument.

By: mule98J

mule98J — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 09:35:47 -0800

Chord progressions are abracadabras, so the key is important to a guitarist's voice. I guess for sax guys too. Many years ago I languished in a holding company at a military post in Massachusetts awaiting the results of a security check, so I could begin my 98J course. A matter of a few weeks. My bunkie was a guy named Arrowsmith, from somewhere in Brazil. He saw me working out on my Japanese nylon stringer and said, "Nice tone, mind if I play it?" I said sure and he tuned it a bit then hit TGFI in Db. I was stricken, smitten, gobsmacked by his use of bass runs and countermelody at the same time, and I made him teach me the chord progression. I was thrilled to have jumped up about six levels of technical prowess without having a clue to the steps involved, but I sure did like what I heard, even my own stilted and stuttering version. I vowed to make it smooth. Then my security clearance came through and I fell through the looking glass for the next three years while TGFI slipped away from me like some sweet dream. Music is he closest to magic as anything else I know. I guess I'm going to have to googlesearch this; yeah, and thanks for the heads up about the real version.

By: Zerowensboring

Zerowensboring — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 09:44:57 -0800

Additionally, there do exist people who experience keys as having a distinct emotional or phenomenal tone, and they find the same song transposed to a new key to have a quite different character. I am sorry to say that I am not one of those people, because that sounds pretty cool. Is this true of music in equal temperament? My skeptical side wonders...this effect was well known before equal temperament became the norm, and is one of the reasons equal temperament was adopted in the first place. Before then, different keys literally sounded different, because the intervals weren't the same from one key to the next. A major chord in one key would sound more positive and solid if the key had a true third than it would in a different key, in which the third was tuned a few cents flat. I can easily imagine that a song pitched in a higher or lower key would have a different emotional valence--I think that's self-evident. And that effect might be exaggerated in a person with perfect pitch. But as for there being an emotional sensitivity to different (equal tempered) keys per se? Well, I wonder about that.

By: rongorongo

rongorongo — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 09:48:05 -0800

I kept humming and half singing the song to myself for the rest of the trip, to the mild annoyance of my wife and son. As a tourist, strolling along Ipanema beach without feeling compelled to hum TGFI would be as unthinkable as navigating Penny Lane, the N74 to Tipperary, the train to Chattanooga or the shores of Loch Lomond without a corresponding urge. I suspect this is how they decide whose pocket is worth picking

By: Wild_Eep

Wild_Eep — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 09:52:50 -0800

DJ Z-Trip and DJ-P, Uneasy Listening, 2001. Stan Getz & Afrika Bambaataa - The Girl From Ipanema/Planet Rock

By: Slothrup

Slothrup — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:10:44 -0800

As an aside, Orfeo Negro is a fabulous fabulous film. I have it on VHS, which of course I have no way to view now... .

By: sjswitzer

sjswitzer — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:15:58 -0800

There are probably many ways keys can be experienced differently. For instance my son, a talented musician, has both perfect pitch and synesthesia where notes invoke shapes. Keys are very different to him, yet he can transpose with no great difficulty.

By: Greg_Ace

Greg_Ace — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:40:58 -0800

Although 99% of that video was fantastic and educational, I don't completely agree with Neely's explanation of why the bluesy piano counter-melody was left out of the "Real Book" transcription. The intended usage of that and other fake books is as a study aid - it provides the basic chord progression and primary melody; it's up to the musicians utilizing it to flesh out those bare bones by listening to recorded versions to get the full context/history of arrangements - which in this case should include the piano counter-melody. Unfortunately, actual fake book/"Real Book" usage doesn't always live up to the intended purpose, and budding jazz musicians sometimes learn tunes from the fake book (and often these days with generic-sounding backing tracks from YouTube or Jamey Aebersold) without bothering to listen to original recordings, resulting in details like original key or piano counter-melody getting lost. Anyway, I happen to have always loved this and other Bossa Nova tunes, and when played with heard and subtlety then can be very beautiful and non-kitchy. I regret that when I was playing regularly with other amateur/semi-pro jazz musicians, nobody (including myself) was willing to tackle it in Db. Now that I'm learning piano by myself, I may have to rectify that.

By: thelonius

thelonius — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:50:12 -0800

D Flat seems like it would be easy enough on piano: all the black keys, plus F and C

By: Greg_Ace

Greg_Ace — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:52:00 -0800

Not to defend the original Berklee "Real Book" by the way. The thing's riddled with transcription errors, not to mention its blatant lack of copyright permissions. But for many people it was the only tool available until legit fake book versions started being published. As it happens, I got mine accidentally by borrowing from a friend (who bought it from a guy selling them out of his car trunk), who also borrowed a mixer from me. We lost touch before returning either item, but I feel like I got the better deal.

By: thelonius

thelonius — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:55:21 -0800

ha it used to be like a drug deal, getting one The copyright-cleared Hal Leonard edition I guess takes all the fun out of it. They could not get rights to every tune either; I know "Peaches En Regalia" is gone, and there are probably one or two others.

By: grumpybear69

grumpybear69 — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:56:36 -0800

The transcription I linked to also suffers from inaccuracy, mostly around the V#11 chords at the bottom of the B section. But it is a good starting point.

By: Greg_Ace

Greg_Ace — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:56:49 -0800

(I see now that I missed Nancy Lebovitz's link regarding the shortcomings of learning from a fake book, which says what my original comment intended to say but much better. My apologies, NL!)

By: kozad

kozad — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 11:05:24 -0800

This happens to be the weirdest song my jazz trio plays, and not for any of the reasons Neely mentions. It's just that it has such an "elevator music" reputation that we feel at liberty to screw around with the timing and when when improvising time rolls around, we turn to free jazz style just for the hell of it. The bassist keeps it going while the flugelhorn and the piano go nuts.

By: Ben Trismegistus

Ben Trismegistus — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 11:42:22 -0800

I don't have time at the moment to watch a half-hour video, but this song would be very difficult to notate in D-flat. If you want to get technical (and why not), the first chord of the bridge would be an E-double-flat-major 7. (Yes, you could write it as a D(natural)maj7, but that would be wrong harmonically.) Much easier in F major, even though it's not as warm a key.

By: jonathanhughes

jonathanhughes — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 11:51:28 -0800

"I don't have time at the moment to watch a half-hour video, but this song would be very difficult to notate in D-flat." Not if you write in a key change.

By: supermedusa

supermedusa — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 12:27:13 -0800

I think I have heard this (canonical version) song 9 or 10 billions times, but I have yet to tire of it.

By: Ben Trismegistus

Ben Trismegistus — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 12:40:47 -0800

Not if you write in a key change. Tonally, though, it's not a key change. It's bIImaj7. :)

By: Ben Trismegistus

Ben Trismegistus — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 12:41:15 -0800

(flat-two-major-7, that is.)

By: thelonius

thelonius — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 12:46:21 -0800

Well I know you said you hadn't time to watch the video; Neely analyzes that chord as IVmaj7 of the first of three key centers that the bridge modulates through.

By: straight

straight — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 12:50:00 -0800

I love this song and love playing it on guitar, but I always feel like a perv singing the lyrics. "Each day when she walks to the sea/She looks straight ahead not at he" has also always made the grammar demon in me twitch. I like it better when a woman sings it so the song is "watching" both the girl and her admirer. And I like that line in particular because it sort of makes explicit that the singer has taken the song and changed the point of view. Huh. I guess there's no reason I couldn't sing it in third person with Astrud Gilberto's lyrics too.

By: Grangousier

Grangousier — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 13:05:26 -0800

Each day when she walks to the gym She looks straight ahead not at him. Hey! I fixed The Girl From Ipanema! (I still haven't got round to watching the videos. That gag's in the first link, isn't it?)

By: Ben Trismegistus

Ben Trismegistus — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 13:38:28 -0800

Well I know you said you hadn't time to watch the video; Neely analyzes that chord as IVmaj7 of the first of three key centers that the bridge modulates through. Oooooooh... will definitely have to check that out then.

By: thelonius

thelonius — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 13:48:47 -0800

It's really interesting - he compares a hypothetical kind of Tin Pan Alley harmonization of the bridge with the lesser known original recording, and with the chords used on the Jobim version.

By: rongorongo

rongorongo — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 14:28:16 -0800

One more think about key for TGFI in particular: the song is a bossa nova and as such evokes the instrumentation of a samba school. The drums used in a samba school bateria include 3 sizes of surdo: the smallest about 15inches diameter, the medium one about 21 inches and the largest maybe 24 inches. These drums are tuned to an interval - maybe a 1st, 4th and 5th - and they provide not only a pulse but a bass melody. The lyrics in both English and Portuguese allude to the girl swinging and swaying . The song is structured to be like a memory of a full on street party samba -as Adam Nealy says, the effectiveness of the song is in its deletions and reductions. The song's bass line is understated (I think you could play it on the lower strings of an acoustic guitar) but it is strongly evoking the 3 pitch samba pattern that would be laid down by the carnival surdos. You can even hear that in the vocal introduction sung over E flat C and B flat. You can't tune surdos over a massive range if they are to sound good - and you do want their pitch to fit in with the rest of the song you are singing over the top of them. So - my guess is that the evoked drums help dictate the key that Jobim and de Moraes thought their song feels right in.

By: onehalfjunco

onehalfjunco — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 14:44:50 -0800

A year or so ago, I posted a quick "[content] but all the [details] are [something else]" format joke/concept. And then one of my friends -a legit composer- made it into a reality. So please enjoy The Wilhelm From Ipanema.

By: TwoToneRow

TwoToneRow — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 14:53:01 -0800

I spent a year a Berklee in the 70's. My introduction to the Real Book was from one of my teachers early on assigning us a project that used a tune in it as a source. I asked him after class what was this "Real Book" thing (I'd never heard of it) and he told me to go to a certain copy shop on Boylston down near the public library and ask a clerk for one. When I did, the guy pulled one from under the counter. I think it was about twenty bucks, cash, no receipt -- kind of felt like a drug deal buying it. I still have it, and it's as coffee stained and beat up as the one in the video. Asking around, nobody seemed to actually know the true origin of the thing -- some people said that one of the teachers at Berklee had compiled it, others said it originally came out of New York, and others said that it was a group of students working together that made it -- all very mysterious. Regardless, it was treated by a lot of the teachers there as an unofficial textbook. I don't get the hate that people seem to have for the RB -- sure, it's just bare-bones lead sheets (only a melody line and chord progression) and it's got its share of mistakes, but as a tool for getting a group of musicians literally on the same page for beginning to work out a tune together, it's hard to beat. Transcribing tunes and deciphering chord progressions from records is not easy -- especially with jazz, much of it on monophonic recordings some from many years ago. Also, the folks that did these didn't have computers with pitch and time-shifting software that make things a lot easier today -- they were picking up and putting down the tone arms on their turntables to work out parts, unless they were fortunate enough to have a personal reel-to-reel tape player. Also, whoever the anonymous author(s) were, they were doing it for fellow jazz lovers, not for fame or money so my hat's off to them!

By: ovvl

ovvl — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 15:01:12 -0800

I'm a fan of Neely, he's kinda cheeky, but he's a genius at explaining complicated things. He also does some decent performance critiques on his channel. Different key signatures having unique characters is totally a thing you can feel in your bones. In our groups we often transpose for vocal range, and you just know it. Paolo Pietropaolo on CBC2 Sunday has a funny audio microseries about anthropomorphizing the personalities of the 24 keys in Western Classical Music, (I think it just finished, but it's somewhere on the CBC website;) 'Black Orpheus' (1959) is on my list of greatest damn films of all time! (note: it shifts from sunny to a heavy final act).

By: sjswitzer

sjswitzer — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 15:04:45 -0800

The point I got about the Real Book is that it's become in effect authoritative and has affected how songs have come down to us, to the detriment of the original material. The jokey name cannot have helped.

By: sjswitzer

sjswitzer — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 15:12:29 -0800

(Not to say that it isn't otherwise a valuable resource.)

By: thelonius

thelonius — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 15:25:21 -0800

Asking around, nobody seemed to actually know the true origin of the thing -- some people said that one of the teachers at Berklee had compiled it, others said it originally came out of New York, and others said that it was a group of students working together that made it -- all very mysterious. There's speculation that Steve Swallow or his students were involved. For one thing, he seems a little over-represented in the original, compared to his overall place in the food chain of jazz composers. And one of his albums is named Real Book (i'd link to some tunes, but Youtube has paywalled them), and had a CD booklet with lead sheets of the songs - maybe a wink at this rumor, or a hint that it is legitimate? Here, however, he seems to distance himself from the book's producers.

By: 1970s Antihero

1970s Antihero — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 15:39:33 -0800

The takeaway that I'm getting from all of this is that the Berklee School of Music killed jazz.

By: Greg_Ace

Greg_Ace — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 16:20:18 -0800

I'm more inclined to opine that standard jazz pedagogy squeezed the life out of the genre by reducing it down to dry mechanics and codified licks (which are more easily teachable and quantifiable). However, to be fair, I wouldn't claim that that one collection of lead sheets and how it ended up being typically used is not the whole of the Berklee School of Music.

By: sjswitzer

sjswitzer — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 16:21:44 -0800

I think the discussion of the state of jazz as a living tradition is... complicated? One might also argue that "conservatory jazz" has saved it, but I totally understand the sentiment. But that, I think, would be a different discussion worthy of its own FPP.

By: jonathanhughes

jonathanhughes — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 16:56:48 -0800

For all the downsides of The Real Book (the incorrect transcriptions, the weird mix of songs (one half stuff that you could play at most gigs, one half stuff that most people have never heard and might not want to hear twice), etc.), the beauty of it is that it's a standard. Pretty much everyone has it, and if you bring it to a gig, there's a good chance it'll come in handy. The Adam Neely video was great, but his blaming the Real Book for being the reason for people's unfamiliarity with the harmony line in the bridge seems a little extreme. First, there are only a handful of songs in there that include anything beyond chords and melody. Second, that counter melody in the bridge really seems like an improvisation by the piano player. I always assumed it was, and that when it was heard in other recordings, that people just thought it was a cool line and decided to add it to their arrangement. So to me, it never seemed like something that should be in the Real Book.

By: Droll Lord

Droll Lord — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 18:11:32 -0800

It was a banner day when I realized how to play jazz in front of an audience of random strangers, with an ensemble whose membersʻ various musicianships had heretofore never entered into each otherʻs ears - a typical pick-up band, cobbled together by an agentʻs last-minute phone calls. It was a pregnant moment on the stage, just after our hurried name exchange, ready to launch musical sounds at a few hundred convention-going tourists facing us in polite anticipation. What Earthly song do we hazard? Of course -- we all could play TGFI in F, enough times to be beyond sick of it. And so, of course, we did it. And the convention-goers relaxed into their drinks. We were legit: they could carry on with their chitchats. And the flame of love for that song renewed inside my soul.

By: Pouteria

Pouteria — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 18:15:06 -0800

Easy for those who grew up with the internet to not appreciate how influential & important the Real Book series was in spreading the word before the computer & internet age made it infinitely easier. I mean, just look at how many versions of the song are listed in the OP. That was practically impossible pre-internet. The Real Books, with all their flaws, were gold to aspiring jazz musos, and many hours were spent photocopying them, typically from photocopies of photocopies of.... The alternative was transcribing them yourself, which is typically a laborious and often difficult task, especially when you were still in the earlier stages of musicianship and yet to master harmony and chord choice. I already had a couple hundred of the tunes as photocopies before I even saw an actual Real Book. The flaws sometimes had useful outcomes, in that your ear would pick up that the RB version wasn't quite right, and that would push you to figure out where any problems were in the transcription (in my experience it was mostly in the chord choice or voicings), which is a valuable learning experience for a muso. •••••••••• Adam Neely is amazing and has reawakened my interest in music theory after many years. posted by macross city flaneur Been subscribed to his channel for a while now, and loving it. You might also like this guy's work, more from a theorist's POV: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTUtqcDkzw7bisadh6AOx5w

By: hippybear

hippybear — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 18:21:50 -0800

This music theory conversation is truly great and fascinating, and I'm not trying to derail it. I just want to interject disappointment that over 70 comments and nobody has mentioned The B-52s -- The Girl From Ipanema Goes To Greenland. That is all.

By: ovvl

ovvl — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 18:24:54 -0800

The other famous Bossa Nova song: Manha de Carnaval

By: vacapinta

vacapinta — Thu, 16 Jul 2020 22:56:29 -0800

These drums are tuned to an interval - maybe a 1st, 4th and 5th - and they provide not only a pulse but a bass melody. The lyrics in both English and Portuguese allude to the girl swinging and swaying . The song is structured to be like a memory of a full on street party samba The English lyrics were written by Norman Gimbel and are not of course a direct translation. I am not a fan. I encourage everyone to take a look at the translation above. The original song with the original Portuguese lyrics is more poetic, less cheesy.

By: ActingTheGoat

ActingTheGoat — Fri, 17 Jul 2020 00:05:29 -0800

I used to date a girl with emphysema.

By: Grangousier

Grangousier — Fri, 17 Jul 2020 00:39:15 -0800

The Girl from Ipanema: Brazil, Bossa Nova and the Beach BBC4 documentary from 2016. It's just struck me again that what the song is saying is "There's this cute chick that goes to the beach every day. We all stare at her ass, but she just ignores us". (Personally I much prefer Aguas de Março from Jobim and Os Afro-Sambas in general / Canto de Ossanha in particular from Vinicius (with Baden Powell, who remade the album later, it seems. I prefer the original with the red cover). I realise that no one with any sense would care what I think about Brazilian music from the 1960s. Also, ads on YouTube are out of control, aren't they?)

By: rongorongo

rongorongo — Fri, 17 Jul 2020 04:09:55 -0800

It's just struck me again that what the song is saying is "There's this cute chick that goes to the beach every day. We all stare at her ass, but she just ignores us". It is 1962. Tom Jobim and (creator of the Portuguese lyrics) are sitting on the beach at Ipanema - I suspect it is early evening, when the locals come out to play. The beach is a short walk from Copacobana neighbourhood where they live. It is an achingly beautiful place as well as a resource of all Cariocas, rich and poor. Rios's geography means you don't have to look far to see the favelas: just look up! It was - and remains - a place where poor people can encounter unattainable wealth and beauty. Anyway - Heloísa Pinheiro goes strolling by them on her way for a swim she looks like this. The fact that she also lived locally - and they she knows she was the subject of the song - indicates that she and the musicians probably knew of each other. Maybe they were even waiting for the moment when she'd go past. The Portuguese lyrics aren't really about lust however. The verse sets the scene and describes the poetry of a beautiful body in movement and the samba feel to the melody describes that motion of different parts swinging together in a harmony. But when we get to the bridge, the song describes how the experience of how seeing somebody beautiful - feeling compelled to watch in fact - can lead to a feeling of sadness and loneliness. We might smile at the sight of such grace and beauty - but it is with a sigh because it is unattainable. Heloísa, the song argues, is young and innocent enough to not (yet) know the wave of attention that follows in her wake. In that sense she is unknowing as the beach itself and the many rich people who walk among those with little. So - yes - it a song about ogling girls on one level. But also one about the nature of beauty, about longing, about inequality about love and about how samba, with its deep cultural roots, permeates down from the favelas to inhabit and define the whole city. Hence: its wider and more enduring resonance to Brazilians and Cariocas in particular. (In the song is a little like Guantanamera - a composition that foreigners often assume to be kitsch but which many locals have a deep attachment to)

By: Grangousier

Grangousier — Fri, 17 Jul 2020 04:57:30 -0800

Well, yes, but at the same time I'm 55 years old, and so I grew up with the normalisation of men ogling women, and grew into the expectation that it was admirable behaviour, especially in exotic cultures - South America, or around the Mediterranean. That was important, as even when I was a child the leering of British men - the Sid James effect - was ugly, no matter how much it was passed off as "a bit of fun", whereas Obviously they were More Relaxed about that sort of thing in other countries. Leering at women can be so poetic. And packaging up that exoticism justifies our leering at women, obviously - the idea that women are to be looked at. They are muses, we are artists. I, personally, am quite vexed by the lies I was told, and the lies I told myself, to normalise all that misogyny. Particularly as I am now an old man myself, and must remember that the behaviour of old men towards young women (even or particularly when their backs are turned) that I observed when I was young - that this sort of imagery justified and romanticised - is not only not right now, but wasn't right then either. This is not Vinicius de Moraes' fault. This is my problem. I grudgingly accept that, however much I'd like a dead poet to take responsibility for my failings. But all these things - the actual nature of Brazilian (or French, or Spanish or Italian) culture, the romanticised appropriated version of that culture that we sold ourselves and all the other things are mixed together into a strange-tasting cocktail, at least in this culture. All the things you say are true, and my précis of the lyrics' surface meaning is facetious but not especially inaccurate and all of these things can be true at the same time. It is problematic. Which doesn't mean wrong, or bad or ought to be cast to the outer darkness; it just means "there are problems with it", and there are. It's a shame. We can't innocently drink that cocktail any more. This song is at the centre of that appropriation and exoticisation - the version that we immediately think of is the Stan Getz version, part of the packaging of Brazilian culture as an aspect of Exotica, music for suburban schlubs to dream of palm trees by. Ah, well. I thought your reply deserved some kind of response. I've certainly done a bunch of typing. Not sure how articulate I've been, but that's why I try to restrict myself to simple one liners. Much better for a smarter person than I to write a whole book about. My favourite version is by Vinicius and Toquinho, once they get past the chat, not to knock the chat, it's just not my favourite bit. It had an enormous impact on what I understood to be possible on the guitar, using it more like a piano. It could have been another record from the same milieu, but it was that one.

By: MonkeyToes

MonkeyToes — Fri, 17 Jul 2020 06:32:39 -0800

Vacapinta, thank you; that translation is something entirely different from what I have always heard. I have had that experience of seeing someone and thinking about what beauty and strength and energy they unknowingly bring to the world as they go about their day, and it was a little like getting a peek at grace. (OK, he was a bike messenger from Philadelphia, but his sweet swing added something good to the world and all these years later, I still remember his grin as he passed by, going uphill, maximum effort but also with joy in his own strength. Ah, if he but knew / That when he passes by, / The world smiles, / Is filled with grace, / And becomes more beautiful, / Because of love.)

By: flapjax at midnite

flapjax at midnite — Fri, 17 Jul 2020 07:25:45 -0800

the world's second most covered song Cite?

By: valkane

valkane — Fri, 17 Jul 2020 07:33:17 -0800

"Numerous recordings have been used in films, sometimes as an elevator music cliché. It is believed to be the second most recorded pop song in history, after "Yesterday" by The Beatles." --Wikipedia.

By: rongorongo

rongorongo — Fri, 17 Jul 2020 10:28:50 -0800

the world's second most covered song Cite? Neely- who probably got the claim from the song's Wikipedia page - which cites this (Pay Walled for me) WSJ article from 2012 . "Most covered song" is a pretty nebulous concept when you dig into it. The Guinness Book of world records cites Gershwin's "Summertime" as being at the top of its list as of 2017. There is going to be a weighting towards songs where performers are sending payment to the copyright holders - so people releasing CDs, using the song in a commercial, etc - rather than something being played by the band at your local bar.

By: soundguy99

soundguy99 — Fri, 17 Jul 2020 17:50:19 -0800

Re: the Real Book - "as a tool for getting a group of musicians literally on the same page for beginning to work out a tune together, it's hard to beat." Pretty much everyone has it, and if you bring it to a gig, there's a good chance it'll come in handy. Yes, exactly. This is why I got one and how I used it (albeit only at the semi-professional level.) It is, to some extent, an artifact of a time (one already on the downslope (in the US, anyway) at the time of its publication in the early 70's) when there were a lot of "jazz" gigs as basically background music - hotel lounges and lobbies, drinks and dinner music for wedding receptions, same for conferences and conventions, clubs and restaurants - where there was a good chance you were going to have to pull off 2 or 4 or 6 hours of music with other musicians you've rarely if ever played with before. The Real Book was (is?) incredibly useful for that. While of course it could be used as a study aid, I've got real doubts that that was its main purpose, and the working musician teachers I had who suggested (insisted) that I get my own copy never presented it as such. It was a useful, maybe even necessary, tool for the gigging musician. A sort of adjustable wrench/spanner - maybe not the best tool in all situations, but it worked pretty good in a lot of circumstances, and you were probably going to regret not having it.