Comments on: Girl Kicked Out Of Prom For Wearing Confederate Flag Sues

Girl Kicked Out Of Prom For Wearing Confederate Flag Sues

expriest — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:14:57 -0800

Girl Kicked Out Of Prom For Wearing Confederate Flag Sues A girl who says it was always her dream to wear a confederate-themed dress to her prom arrived in a self-designed gown which incorporated the Confederate battle flag into its design. The school promptly removed her, and she is suing. The fate of her suit is somewhat uncertain. Lower federal courts have applied the Tinker test, which says that a school may restrict student expression when that expression may be disruptive. To win her suit, the girl will need to show that wearing a Confederate flag to your high school prom is not a disruptive act.

By: Robot Johnny

Robot Johnny — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:18:28 -0800

I think she should at least be arrested by the Fashion Police.

By: rev_crash_davis

rev_crash_davis — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:19:50 -0800

Dear Lord, please strike all the rednecks dead in thy mercy. Amen.

By: socratic

socratic — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:21:29 -0800

I aspire to market Confederate Flag toilet paper... and I'm from the South. What a moron.

By: XQUZYPHYR

XQUZYPHYR — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:26:18 -0800

"I wanted to show part of my Southern heritage," she said, explaining why she wanted to wear the dress. "See, as this Confederate flag shows, my heritage is a long line of losers."

By: Vaska

Vaska — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:26:18 -0800

Her statement of being proud of her southern heritage yet distancing herself from the racism charge seems a bit tenuous. Slavery may not have been the key reason for the Civil War but it certainly was a major component of southern lifestyle and the economy. On the other hand I believe everyone and especially kids should have complete first amendment rights, to do otherwise allows the system to brainwash or at least stultify those in their charge until they leave college at which point it's simply too late for most. Does anyone have personal knowledge of the school she attends? I was wondering at the ratio of black to white students as this might suggest the school really wanted to get her out because they didn't want anyone intimidated or for a fight to break out which would have led to further lawsuits.

By: cosmonik

cosmonik — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:26:57 -0800

Is their a picture of this dress? I'd be interested to see if it's anything but an eyesore. Is the Confederate flag that contentious an issue? If so, is it considered disruptive due to the north/south divide, or the association with slavery, or all of the above? Serious questions - I honestly can't figure it out. One of my workplaces has a Confederate flag hanging next to a Cuban flag, with a portrait of Elizabeth Regina II herself in the middle. Is this inconsiderate to any American nationals who happen to infiltrate the office? Also; while I am inclined to agree with the rev above, it seems a sad blow for freedom of expression. It's so prohibitive an issue now. "The fate of her suit" I thought it was a dress? (j/k)

By: Secret Life of Gravy

Secret Life of Gravy — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:27:36 -0800

Her only dance for her senior prom was on the sidewalk to a song playing on the radio," said Earl-Ray Neal, her lawyer. She would have a lawyer named Earl-Ray!

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:27:42 -0800

"I wanted to show part of my Southern heritage," Hospitality must not have been one of them. Plus, being born after the confederate flag was non representative to her, how is this flag her heritage? I'd been pissed that the school knew about it before showing up to the prom and only said something then, which is out of line.

By: kaemaril

kaemaril — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:27:46 -0800

> the girl will need to show that wearing a Confederate flag to your high school prom is not a disruptive act. < Isn't this backwards? Shouldn't the school be showing that wearing the dress WAS a disruptive act? Or is there a "Everything we ban is disruptive until proven otherwise" policy or something?

By: rev_crash_davis

rev_crash_davis — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:30:25 -0800

"while I am inclined to agree with the rev above, it seems a sad blow for freedom of expression" Oh, I completely agree that she should be allowed to wear it on a pure First Amerndment basis. I just don't much care for rednecks.

By: Secret Life of Gravy

Secret Life of Gravy — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:31:14 -0800

I was wondering at the ratio of black to white students as this might suggest the school really wanted to get her out because they didn't want anyone intimidated or for a fight to break out "...school officials made students wearing Confederate symbols change or remove the items even though the symbols were not creating any disruption in the predominantly white high school"

By: The God Complex

The God Complex — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:32:51 -0800

I think she should be able to wear it and everyone should ridicule her for her boring dream.

By: fenriq

fenriq — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:33:59 -0800

So what if her lifelong aspiration had been to wear a KKK uniform to her prom? Is that freedom of expression or an incitement to violence? And yes, the fashion police should have beaten her into submission and made her wear a powder blue chiffon number with big hair and a four pound corsage. On Preview: TGC, that was brilliant!

By: expriest

expriest — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:34:15 -0800

> the girl will need to show that wearing a Confederate flag to your high school prom is not a disruptive act. Isn't this backwards? Nope, the Court in Tinker held that the First Amendment offers only a very limited protection to public school students. State has a compelling interest in ensuring students don't disrupt class and all that jazz. If the Court had held otherwise, it would unconstitutional for a school to discipline a student who ran through the halls yelling racial slurs.

By: Secret Life of Gravy

Secret Life of Gravy — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:34:54 -0800

I'd been pissed that the school knew about it before showing up to the prom and only said something then, which is out of line. "Word of Duty's plans made its way to principal Sean Howard, who called Duty the night before the prom and told her not to wear the dress, her lawyers said. Duty's mother, Max Duty, tried to talk to school officials about their decision but those talks went nowhere, Neal said. Duty didn't have another dress to wear. So she decided to go to the prom and see whether school administrators would change their mind." She knew, they knew, everybody apparently knew. She just decided to force the issue.

By: asterisk

asterisk — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:35:26 -0800

Photo here.

By: Peter H

Peter H — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:36:46 -0800

(looks at photo) um, Maybe she was already thrown out of school previously for being a bozo dumbshit and is to stupid to know otherwise?

By: rev_crash_davis

rev_crash_davis — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:37:55 -0800

From asterisk's link: "People wear crosses, the Star of David, and various items that represent a part of them and where they come from but once I tried to do that in a way like not many others have I was turned away and treated in a horrible manner. "

By: 1016

1016 — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:39:24 -0800

thomcatspike, heritage can mean tradition, so, even though she's a screwball, that wasn't a misuse of the word. "See, as this Confederate flag shows, my heritage is a long line of losers." An old (in several ways) friend told me he served in the US Army in the 50s in what was then called the Dixie Brigade (or Division, or something like that) and that he was at a jazz club wearing his uniform. Dizzy Gillespie was playing, and he noticed the patch on his uniform. Cool Diz took out a white handkerchief, waved it at him and said, "Hey, Dixie, you see this? You know what this is?" Before my friend could respond, Diz said, to gales of laughter, "It's the last Confederate Battle Flag!!"

By: ch3ch2oh

ch3ch2oh — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:41:05 -0800

slavery existed and was a large part of american culture for quite some time as well. we should ban prom dresses made from old glory too, while we're at it.

By: Peter H

Peter H — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:43:26 -0800

I will applaud her for this: the Klan usually are stuck with hoods and robes, which aren't evening wear in the slightest. Here's to innovation! Also, aren't you not supposed to wear white pride after labor day?

By: fenriq

fenriq — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:44:01 -0800

Damn, that is one butt ugly dress. Maybe it would look better crumpled up on the floor of my love van?

By: Dick Paris

Dick Paris — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:44:50 -0800

Should she have the right to wear it? Yes. Although I might have argued for having her remove it on the spot. Er, I mean, remove her from the... nevermind. Should we live in a country that proudly displays the symbols of racism? No. Vaska: contrary to what anyone wants to believe, the Civil War, aka the War Between the States (a much better name) erupted due to slavery. The expansion of the Union created tension in the balance of slave states and free states. One can wave the "states rights" banner all one wants but it is merely a veil for one "right" that was being protected: holding other humans in bondage. And, yeah. I would like to see the dress too. The only good display I've ever seen of the Confederate flag is atop the General Lee. Yee-haw!

By: cosmonik

cosmonik — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:45:00 -0800

Her dad's name is 'Max Duty'? Is that legal? The dress is ugly as sin, but disruptive? I don't see it, but I'm from a different world, methinks. (TGC nailed it. Wear what you want, and bear the consequences. Same with a KKK sheet.)

By: Peter H

Peter H — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:46:39 -0800

fenriq, you'd never be able to get that van clean again, ;)

By: Dick Paris

Dick Paris — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:48:01 -0800

I designed and had made a Confederate Flag Dress to show a piece of my heritage and to show what I stood for. Thanks, asterisk. How's obelisk? Oh, and I don't mean for my first commment to mean that anyone should move away -- just that we should be long past this absurdity.

By: marxchivist

marxchivist — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:50:31 -0800

Is the Confederate flag that contentious an issue? Yes. If so, is it considered disruptive due to the north/south divide, or the association with slavery, or all of the above? Slavery. The flag's adoption by many white supremacists groups during the Civil Rights Era probably did as much to identify this flag with racists as anything that happened before or during the Civil War though. One of my workplaces has a Confederate flag hanging next to a Cuban flag, with a portrait of Elizabeth Regina II herself in the middle. Is this inconsiderate to any American nationals who happen to infiltrate the office? It very likely would offend someone who is African-American. Hell, the Cuban flag would probably piss someone off.

By: fixedgear

fixedgear — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:51:47 -0800

Her dad's name is 'Max Duty'? Is that legal? Jeez, it says her mom is named Max Duty, which seems worse. I think her father's given name is Heavy.

By: sotonohito

sotonohito — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:54:07 -0800

As a free speech fanatic I say she should have been allowed to wear the dress. As someone who has ancestors who died fighting for the Confederate States of America, and a proud Southerner, I'd have told her I thought her dress was both anti-American and racist. You can't simultaneously be an American patriot and love the Confederate States of America; not unless you are insane. I am continually amazed that my fellow southerners feel compelled to claim that the Confederate battle flag is something other than an emblem of slavery, racism, and the fact that their ancestors were conned into fighting for a cause that wasn't in their own best interests. The average Confederate soldier sure as shit didn't stand to gain anything by a Confederate victory. My ancestors were duped, and I see no point in glorifying the bastards who duped them.

By: fandango_matt

fandango_matt — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:54:18 -0800

Goddamn but I am sick of racist redneck assholes who insist on flying that fucking flag, claiming it to be "their heritage" or "their tradition." When you boil it all down, that flag stands for one thing and it's no surprise skinheads far and wide have adopted it as a surrogate nazi flag/swastika. But yes, absolutely this idiot should be allowed to wear her sequined monstrosity so everyone at the dance can mock her mercilessly.

By: XQUZYPHYR

XQUZYPHYR — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:54:27 -0800

Photo here. Holy cow. Did she drive away to the prom in HER BRAND NEW CAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!

By: fenriq

fenriq — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:55:00 -0800

cosmonik, if she'd been a boy her name would be Jack Duty. I think that's pretty funny for some reason. Especially if her middle was Off. Peter, it's cool, I borrowed the van from my pal! Ha! And yes, she should have been allowed to wear the dress. If this isn't a crime then I don't why another butt ugly dress should be.

By: cosmonik

cosmonik — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:56:14 -0800

Marxchivist - thanks for demystifying that for me. I connect the flag with a) Civil War and b) the Dukes Of Hazzard, and didn't even think about the Civial Rights era. Noted. Strange (but understandable) how symbols work like that - I have absolutely no emotional response to it whatsoever. Raising issue of said flags in workplace as of...now. (oh and apologies for my confusion of Max Duty's gender)

By: linux

linux — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:59:59 -0800

Dress not disruptive. School wrong. Still a stupid dress.

By: Arch Stanton

Arch Stanton — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:02:21 -0800

She sounds like quite the catch. I bet confederate flag dresses make all the Kentucky boys go crazy. She can wear the dress just as much as someone can have a confederate flag in the back window of their pickup.

By: orange clock

orange clock — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:03:09 -0800

The South should get out more.

By: Dick Paris

Dick Paris — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:03:28 -0800

Schools don't teach compostion and sentence structure anymore, do they?

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:05:13 -0800

Maybe it would look better crumpled up on the floor of my love van? Yes, because the dress' "X marks the spot" is in the wrong place (it's on her right side);P

By: zarq

zarq — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:05:27 -0800

Hey expriest? Where's the "You Might Be A Redneck!" punchline? ;-)

By: Mayor Curley

Mayor Curley — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:06:45 -0800

I wish I hadn't used my General Sherman graphic twice already. What's that? You want to see it again? Well, okay.

By: haqspan

haqspan — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:09:05 -0800

I think she should have the right to wear it, but then face charges of treason for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

By: cosmonik

cosmonik — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:10:17 -0800

Mayor - you can never get enough Sherman.

By: bingo

bingo — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:12:56 -0800

The prom does not take place while school is in session. Doesn't/shouldn't that make a difference?

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:14:14 -0800

Any lawyers want to comment: Why did she wait so long to sue as the picture's date stamp is from last April? What is the (forget the word) time line you have to make a suit like this?

By: kaemaril

kaemaril — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:14:19 -0800

expriest: I read the bit, thanks. And the bit about Tinker. You maybe miss my point? The school says it's disruptive, and that's it? Case closed? Based on what? If we accept that anything a school says is disruptive ipso facto is disruptive, without bothering to check if this is so.... Well, it could be bad news. If for example a principal wanted to give a student a hard time that principal could say that wearing purple* is disruptive... said student would then have to prove that wearing purple is not disruptive? Wouldn't it be down to the principal to demonstrate that purple is disruptive? Whatever happened to presumption of innocence^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hnon-disruptiveness? :) That's a nasty dress, though.

By: sotonohito

sotonohito — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:14:33 -0800

cosmonik: My girlfriend has a more vicarial reaction to the Confederate battle flag than I do. She feels compelled to offer her middle finger to those wearing or otherwise displaying it. She suppresses that compulsion quite often, but its there. I think its mainly because she's black. My dislike for the Confederate battle flag is less emotional. The funny thing is that real racists, klansmen, neo-nazis, etc are actually fairly uncommon in the south these days. You find the main concentrations up north; in places where there aren't many blacks around... Not that the southern neo-Confederate klansman doesn't exist, he's just not that common. As for schools, clothing, and free speech, recall the kid who was kicked out becuase of his anti-Bush T-shirt, the teacher who inspected female student's panties, or the teacher kicked a black student out of a dance after telling him he looked like a pimp. The ACLU has been fighting for student's rights for a long time now, and the fight has a long way to go.

By: Juicylicious

Juicylicious — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:14:52 -0800

I have to defend poor little Jacqueline here. As far as prom dresses go, her's is far from the worst that I've seen. She obviously put a lot of work into it. I think that she should have been allowed to wear it and to suffer the consequenes, if any that may have ocurred. On the other hand, she had fair warning that she couldn't wear the dress. She should have planned an alternate outfit. Frankly, I think that whole incident is a put on by the Southern Legal Resource Center, which seems to be itching to litigate this issue. I'd lay money on it that Jacqueline didn't come up with this idea herself.

By: bibliowench

bibliowench — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:15:17 -0800

"I wasn't there to cause problems I was going to do as I was told so that way what they did was all on them and none of this could come back on me. I was so embarrassed by all of this because they wouldn't even let us out of our automobile and yelled and screamed all of these things at my date and myself in front of a large crowd who were mostly there to see me and support what I was standing up for." Did the South rebel against grammatical aggression as well?

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:17:12 -0800

The prom does not take place while school is in session I'm guessing she graduated in early May. Can you shed some more light to your comment

By: IshmaelGraves

IshmaelGraves — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:17:20 -0800

I don't see the problem. What if she wore a Che Guevera t-shirt to school? Che set up labor camps for homosexuals -- does that mean everyone who wears a Che t-shirt is a gay-bashing fanatic? (Yes, it probably means he or she is an idiot, but luckily idiocy is constitutionally protected around these parts.) What about people who wear old Soviet or East German military jackets? This is a non-issue. Plenty of people wear stupid symbols of stupid things. Hell, I've seen black people down here with Confederate flags on their cars — why, I can't imagine, but then, it's not really any of my business, is it?

By: ericb

ericb — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:23:16 -0800

Battle on Gay Pride Shirts Leads to Suit Against School

By: fenriq

fenriq — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:23:49 -0800

sotonohito, wow, thanks for the link to the peeky vice principal story, that totally slipped by when it happened. And I think that Juicylicious is probably right, its a put up by the Southern Legal Resource Center. And the dress is still ugly but I do have to say that it looks like she put alot of time into it and it is well done, its just as ugly as the sins it represents.

By: ericb

ericb — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:24:33 -0800

Student leaves school after filing T-shirt suit

By: kaemaril

kaemaril — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:26:27 -0800

sotonohito: the kid with the anti-Bush shirt won, according to this ACLU article. Of particular interest, and which may be apropo: In granting the order, Judge Patrick J. Duggan noted that "there is no evidence that the t-shirt created any disturbance or disruption" in the school and that "the record...does not reveal any basis for [the assistant principal's] fear aside from his belief that the t-shirt conveyed an unpopular political message."

By: ludwig_van

ludwig_van — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:27:15 -0800

Why are you all so sure that the dress is not disruptive? I don't know about her classmates, but if I saw an idiot wearing a dress like that at my senior prom, you can bet there would have been a disruption.

By: eriko

eriko — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:29:36 -0800

large crowd who were mostly there to see me and support what I was standing up for Armed rebellion against the United States, and High Treason? It's funny how "You're either with us, or against us" -- and yet, waving a flag that symbolized the largest and costliest act of treason the US has ever faced is OK. Man, we screwed up badly. Every confederate officer and politician should have hung. But, no, we had to be "reasonable."

By: thirteen

thirteen — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:29:42 -0800

I figure worrying about people's clothing is about as important as worrying about what sex a person wants to enter a civil union with. Hell is other people.

By: jokeefe

jokeefe — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:31:42 -0800

The school spoke to my mother and I as if we were stupid and with no respect. You wouldn't believe how they acted. When the principle [sic] told my boyfriend and I to leave he, I'm guessing, wanted to show his anger and smacked the hood of my boyfriend's mom's car. They acted out in the wrong way trying to use force when we weren't even putting up a fight. [...] The school that I attend showed absolutely no respect for my rights they only went on what they had heard and acted on the rights of others who could have possibly been offended not even thinking about the things that go on and are worn that may offend others. I no longer care about the dress. It's butt-ugly and offensive and bad enough as far as that goes, but her writing is far, far worse. The Composition Police should arrest her immediately. I'm guessing.

By: kaemaril

kaemaril — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:34:08 -0800

ludwig: I'm not sure it's not disruptive, I'm just questioning whether a school's pronouncement that something is disruptive automatically makes it so. However, from the article: The lawsuit says that after the prom, school officials made students wearing Confederate symbols change or remove the items even though the symbols were not creating any disruption in the predominantly white high school in northeast Kentucky. I guess if confederate symbols weren't causing any disruption, a dress probably wouldn't either ... apart to the fashion conscious, obviously :)

By: NationalKato

NationalKato — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:38:26 -0800

the South will rise again! once we refill our BeDazzler, that is.

By: ludwig_van

ludwig_van — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:42:44 -0800

However, from the article: The lawsuit says that after the prom, school officials made students wearing Confederate symbols change or remove the items even though the symbols were not creating any disruption in the predominantly white high school in northeast Kentucky. I guess if confederate symbols weren't causing any disruption, a dress probably wouldn't either A prom is a significantly different setting from a classroom. I'm not sure what her situation is, but at my senior prom, everyone spent a significant amount of money to attend; I think mine was $150/ticket, not to mention money spent on attire, personal grooming, limo service, etc. None of these things are required/necessary, but they're quite common. I wouldn't want to spend all that money to attend a formal event and have it ruined by a girl flagrantly and garishly displaying a symbol of slavery.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:46:35 -0800

Hell, I've seen black people down here with Confederate flags on their cars — why, I can't imagine, Careless car theives? I'll see my self out...

By: sotonohito

sotonohito — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:50:21 -0800

ludwig_van: I'm not at all sure the dress wasn't disruptive. I would have caused at least a small disruption by asking her why she hates America and wants to celebrate slavery. Of course, then I'd have to ask why she wanted to go to the prom in such an ugly dress. I just disagree with the idea that "disruptive" trumps the First Amendment. I'll even go so far as to say that if someone had deliberately spilled a drink on her I'd disapprove of it. To paraphrase Voltaire: I disagree with her dress, but I will defend to the death her right to wear it.

By: Foosnark

Foosnark — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:57:31 -0800

Her statement of being proud of her southern heritage yet distancing herself from the racism charge seems a bit tenuous. Having grown up in northern South Florida, I can say truthfully that I never heard the "Confederate flag = racist" thing until I moved to Missouri. It did have the more general "Confederate flag = probably an asshat" meaning though.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:00:55 -0800

I think what we have here is a fundamental disconnect. I sincerely doubt the young lady wanted to "celebrate slavery." To northerners the stars and bars are a symbol of slavery, to southerners, it's a symbol of being southern, a cultural identity (one that's still derided by non-southerners, if some of the comments here are any indication). Now that cultural identity has a problematic history, but just about any cultural heritage is a mixed bag. On the other hand, she couldn't have been oblivious to the fact that her dress might get people agitated, so there's more than one side, I guess.

By: The God Complex

The God Complex — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:19:39 -0800

to southerners, it's a symbol of being southern, a cultural identity (one that's still derided by non-southerners, if some of the comments here are any indication). To some southerners. I really doubt all southerners see it that way.

By: Vaska

Vaska — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:20:09 -0800

The Secret Life of Gravy : Thank you, I obviously didn't read close enough. With that in mind, I can see the school not wanting to let her dress possibly intimidate the black students, it's still a bad decision though. (Excellent screen name by the way) Dick Paris : I'm aware that most of white supremacy groups and their variously described ilk try and run with the states right's issue, please don't lump me with them. It's simply from most of what I've read it seems that the South and North were already having serious problems, and that slavery was integral but not the only reason, though it certainly become the flashpoint once John Brown made his move.

By: Slothrup

Slothrup — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:26:15 -0800

The average Confederate soldier sure as shit didn't stand to gain anything by a Confederate victory. My ancestors were duped, and I see no point in glorifying the bastards who duped them. Updated for today: The average white Southerner sure as shit didn't stand to gain anything by a Republican victory. My countrymen were duped...

By: Slothrup

Slothrup — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:28:28 -0800

I'm German. Can I choose to wear a swastika as part of my cultural identity? It's not like the "Confederate battle flag" was a decades-long legitimate symbol of the South. It flew as a "real" flag for only five years. After that it was nothing more than a raised middle finger to the rest of the country.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:29:49 -0800

To some southerners. I really doubt all southerners see it that way. Thanks for demonstrating your firm grasp of the obvious, TGC. But the "southern identity" issue is deeper issue in this tempest in a teapot. Most southerners I've known are extremely ambivalent about their heritage. On the one hand, they're not fond of the history of slavery and racism. On the other hand, they all tend to be very attached to other legacies of southern culture, and tend to bristle at the "dumb redneck" stereotypes offered up by northerners. Also plenty of working class whites (and blacks) I've known who've left northern cities haven't fled to the suburbs, they couldn't afford to. They fled to the south, to a large degree because they felt pressed between gentrification and ghettoization and the south offered a space for them that the north dosen't seem to anymore. I realize I'll be accused of "fence sitting" yet again for trying to see all sides of things. Whatever. After that it was nothing more than a raised middle finger to the rest of the country. Exactly. Which is it's primary appeal to people. It's called a "Rebel" flag, remember?

By: Sidhedevil

Sidhedevil — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:49:57 -0800

There were a number of conflicts over states' rights, but the specific one that triggered the US Civil War was whether or not states had the rights to create legal structures for people to own, buy, and sell other people. I would have let the girl wear the stupid dress, and let her classmates ridicule her freely. It would have been great if everyone had made a "protest prom" dress--I can see kids gyrating on the dance floor in dresses adorned with the "Black Power" fist, the "rainbow flag", the "no wire hangers" symbol, the "tiny fetus feet" symbol, the Last Supper... And now you all know why I am not a high school principal.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:52:55 -0800

-I can see kids gyrating on the dance floor in dresses adorned with the "Black Power" fist, the "rainbow flag", the "no wire hangers" symbol, the "tiny fetus feet" symbol, the Last Supper... Would all their dates being wearing "I'm with Stupid" tuxes. Actually the primary issue is that proms are really lame.

By: klue

klue — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:57:51 -0800

Should Anwar Sadat be allowed to wear a nazi-looking-tie while in the knesset?

By: SisterHavana

SisterHavana — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:10:45 -0800

She should have worn this. : )

By: naomi

naomi — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:14:30 -0800

Most southerners I've known are extremely ambivalent about their heritage. I'm not ambivalent, not the least tiny bit, and I've lived here all my life. It's people like this girl who give rednecks a bad name. The South lost the Civil War in a rare instance of cosmic justice. The traitorous citizens of Memphis were lucky to be occupied by Grant instead of burnt by Sherman, but we would have equally deserved the latter fate. The stars-and-bars today is nothing more than a tattered symbol of slavery apologists and the willfully ignorant. If Grant hadn't been such a gracious and lenient victor, many of these very same southerners would not be alive today to flaunt their tacky prom dresses and idiotic bumperstickers. A true rebel wouldn't be stuck on a wrongful cause that was decisively lost 139 years ago. It's long past time we grew the hell up.

By: Sidhedevil

Sidhedevil — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:15:21 -0800

Oh, man, I would absolutely pay money to see a steel-cage match between SisterHavana's chick and the Confederate-dress girl. I had fun at my prom. And I was named to the prom Court. There go my indie credentials forever.

By: bingo

bingo — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:24:03 -0800

thomcatspike: I'm guessing she graduated in early May. Can you shed some more light to your comment Sure, I'm saying that the issue is (or should be) whether or not the dress caused disruption to the learning process. That's what the Tinker decision was about anyway. The dance may take place on school property, but school is not in session. On seeing the photo: that is really very tame.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:24:37 -0800

I'm not ambivalent, not the least tiny bit, and I've lived here all my life. It's people like this girl who give rednecks a bad name The fact that you embrace the word "redneck," says that you are, at least a little bit. Listen, I've taken plenty of shit from white people for embracing non-white folk, so I'm the furthest thing from an apologist for slavery. But the south is an area I ahve affection for, and I say that as a first-generation American damyankee. What I was getting at with "southern identity" and "ambivalence" was this: a new southern identity needs to be created, one that embraces the good things about the south (the food, the music, the open manners) and discards the bad (the racism, the intolerance, the economic oppression). Musicians like Greg Allman and Ronnie Van Zant tried to do this, as does this book. See what I'm getting at? On preview: sidhedevil, I spent my junior prom in a graveyard eating chinese food 500 miles away. my senior prom, I don't know where I was, probably drunk or at work. Wiseass, pimply half-assed hooligans have trouble getting dates.

By: Kleptophoria!

Kleptophoria! — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:25:00 -0800

There's really no difference between the Confederate flag and the Nazi one. Both were flags that represented short-lived governments that existed primarily to spread suffering. It amuses me to no end that anyone would support either flag's existence in anything but a museum. You shouldn't be allowed to fly the Confederate flags at all. You shouldn't be allowed to fly the Nazi flag. Free speech blah blah blah. Yes, the freedom to harm others. What about the freedom from certain kinds of speech? Is sexual harassment okay, as long as it is only verbal? Free speech! Hooray for boobies! That any Southerner would claim the Confederate flag as some sort of heritage symbol only furthers the "redneck cracker" stereotype of sheer idiocy that the rest of the world is familiar with.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:29:25 -0800

kleptophoria, the conflict between north and south in this country is not so simple as just hanging the matter on slavery. The conflict between rural poor peasantry and urban sophisticate is an old one, and exists in plenty of places besides the US, and neither side is completely innocent.

By: nightchrome

nightchrome — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:29:31 -0800

Holy Godwin, Batman! It constantly amazes me how many people are totally clueless about the whole North/South thing and think the South was somehow "evil".

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:31:55 -0800

to quote Bob Dylan; "the poor white man he ain't to blame/He's only a pawn in their game" or Dr. King "The poor white was fed Jim Crow instead of bread." on preview: nightcrow, regardless of the hypocrises of the north (Grant was a slaveowner, too), it's hard to argue that slavery was anything but evil.

By: Sidhedevil

Sidhedevil — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:32:01 -0800

The conflict between the CSA and the Union hardly represents the "conflict between poor peasantry and urban sophisticate". New York, which was the largest city in the Union, was a Copperhead haven; rural New England's "poor peasantry" were disproportionately represented among Union soldiers and Union casualties.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:36:04 -0800

The conflict between the CSA and the Union hardly represents the "conflict between poor peasantry and urban sophisticate". Agreed, sidhedevil, the Civil War was mainly poor yankee boys fighting poor southern boys. I was referring to the present day north-south war of stereotypes. Of course while the Civil War was going on my ancestors were digging potatoes in Ireland and stealing Chickens in Milan, so I only have a theoretical dog in this fight.

By: Sidhedevil

Sidhedevil — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:39:34 -0800

Embarrassingly enough for me, even though I am a DAR, all of my ancestors bought their way out of service in the Civil War. So I only have a cowardly dog in this fight.

By: darkstar

darkstar — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:41:42 -0800

If Grant hadn't been such a gracious and lenient victor, many of these very same southerners would not be alive today to flaunt their tacky prom dresses and idiotic bumperstickers. Wow, she doesn't look that old! ;)

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:42:28 -0800

Maybe my ancestors cleaned your ancestors houses. We're practically related! I'm the son of a Vietnam Veteran and the grandson of a WWII vet (both non-combatant, thankfully) so I guess I'm clear on that score.

By: Mach3avelli

Mach3avelli — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:47:40 -0800

What if she was black? I bet that would make this case interesting....

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:49:45 -0800

yes, and what if my aunt had balls, then she'd be my uncle.

By: Kleptophoria!

Kleptophoria! — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:53:19 -0800

I wasn't talking about America's bizarre eternal invisible war between the northern states and the southern states. I was talking about a flag for a short-lived government that fought tooth and nail to keep on keeping slaves. The flag was for that government. It was not some sort of "Southern Pride" flag. It has been made into a Southern Pride flag. That's like me, because I'm German, running around with a swastika because it represents my VATERLAND, JA. Honestly, World War II was all about the fight against bankers. It had nothing to do with oppressing people. And Nazi comparisons are always helpful for people who don't understand symbols and authoritarianism and control and oppression and war. Fuck you people and your Godwin's Law.

By: Mach3avelli

Mach3avelli — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:54:38 -0800

yes, and what if my aunt had balls, then she'd be my uncle. No, then she'd be a hermaphrodite. There's a couple black shills here and there who show up to Confederate rallies so Fox News can air it. Think Republican Nat'l Convention.

By: Bort

Bort — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:56:04 -0800

ludwig_van: A prom is a significantly different setting from a classroom. I'm not sure what her situation is, but at my senior prom, everyone spent a significant amount of money to attend; I think mine was $150/ticket, not to mention money spent on attire, personal grooming, limo service, etc. None of these things are required/necessary, but they're quite common. I wouldn't want to spend all that money to attend a formal event and have it ruined by a girl flagrantly and garishly displaying a symbol of slavery So freedom of expression is limited to what - semi-formal or less events that cost, oh, say, $50 or less to get in to? Slothrup: I'm German. Can I choose to wear a swastika as part of my cultural identity? A swastika would most likely fall under the disruptive category for a school event. Of course, if your school is a private school for white supremists, then it would probably not be disruptive and ok. If your talking about walking down the street wearing a swastika, then yes, you can choose to do that. Probably not very wise, but it's certainly your right.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:56:57 -0800

Ultimately, this whole thing is a free speech issue, and I am 100% in favor of unfettered free speech. from everyone. just don't bitch about accepting peoples reaction. I remember about the time Malcolm X hats were big, I saw a t-sirt bearing the confederate flag saying "You wear your X and I'll wear mine." Sums it up for me. It was not some sort of "Southern Pride" flag. That's not what it was intended as, but that's what it's become to a lot of people. Separate sign from signifier, my man. Honestly, World War II was all about the fight against bankers. It had nothing to do with oppressing people. Tell that to the troops that liberated the death camps, junior.

By: darkstar

darkstar — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:57:49 -0800

As I'm reading The Federalist Papers currently, it's becoming clear to me that the North-South division was brewing even before our Constitution was drafted. Hamilton, Jay and Madison were (among other things) doing their best to try to convince the Southerners that it would be better to have a single nation than to create two or three confederations. It's also clear that, even though we went with the one-nation republic, there were a lot of influential folks in the South that never were comfortable with being tied to the Northern states and handing over their self-determination to a Federalist system. It only took 70 years for their festering discontent to erupt into a Civil War when given what they felt was ample reason to reject the Union. Having grown up in the South (with ancestors in the Revolutionary and Civil Wars) a lot of those attitudes are still floating around in my own family. A couple hundred years isn't very long in a nation's lifetime, after all, and family memories can be pretty long. There are folks in the South that "remember" the insults of the Civil War with the same hurt that they remember forced desegregation in the '60s, more for the insult to their honor and the loss of power than any racist motives (though those exist too). And they're still looking for a reason to separate from them Yankees.

By: davy

davy — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:58:29 -0800

Somehow she graduated from a Kentucky high school without learning that Kentucky was a Union state.

By: majcher

majcher — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:12:27 -0800

Hell, I've seen black people down here with Confederate flags on their cars — why, I can't imagine Not that anyone cares... here's one of those "black shills". I'm amazed at the responses here so far. jonmc seems to be the lone voice of sanity.

By: SweetJesus

SweetJesus — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:16:52 -0800

What a sad cause...

By: majcher

majcher — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:17:02 -0800

And there's davy, wrong again.

By: grrarrgh00

grrarrgh00 — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:17:03 -0800

Good Lord. The poor girl should have been allowed to wear the damn dress, and in my ideal world, the only thing the act would have prompted would be a discussion. Yes, for many people, the Confederate flag is our American swastika, but for many, it really is a symbol of heritage. This girl was very likely brought up to distrust the darker symbolism ascribed to the stars and bars, and considered it a brave and beautiful thing to stick up for her ancestors' culture. Any opportunity to sensitively educate her and possibly others about the real, lasting ramifications of that culture have been squandered by the reflexive need to quash her act of speech. Does anyone think she's been made more racially sensitive by the school's actions? Does anyone think the school's policy has done anything but set those who support her more firmly in their ways? I wish more people would meet speech with better speech, not censors.

By: rfs

rfs — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:21:09 -0800

Actually, Kentucky was a Border State, so she should have put both flags on her lovely dress.

By: Bort

Bort — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:21:39 -0800

Kleptophoria!: You shouldn't be allowed to fly the Confederate flags at all. You shouldn't be allowed to fly the Nazi flag. Free speech blah blah blah. Yes, the freedom to harm others. What about the freedom from certain kinds of speech? Is sexual harassment okay, as long as it is only verbal? Free speech! Hooray for boobies! [Bort, take a deep breath... now, try not to curse.] So who is going to make the list of things that are so offensive I cannot do them? You? The majority? That's what the first amendment is all about (and, yes, I realize you're Canadian) - to protect my right to do things that offend you but do not harm you. Do you really not see the difference between my directly harming you with sexual harassment, and your taking offense to a flag I choose to fly, or burn, or make into a dress?

By: aliendolphin

aliendolphin — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:23:11 -0800

Confederate Girls Gone Wild.

By: cosmonik

cosmonik — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:34:30 -0800

Bort - but don't you see the parallels there? Who's to say what is offensive and/or sexually harassing? The victim. If someone is made to feel uncomfortable through your actions, that can constitute sexual harassment. In the workplace, it's verbot. Same with racial discrimination, or for people with disabilities. Now; to flags. Or shirts or dresses. Do you apply the same logic? If so, it depends on how your actions offend others. Personally, I say suck it up and take responsibility - do what you want, and reap the fucking whirlwind of your actions. But that's just my opinion.

By: nanojath

nanojath — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:42:51 -0800

It seems to me that the issue of the identification of the confederate flag with issues of institutional racism extends far beyond the civil war as well: it was often used to symbolize southern states' resistance to federal mandates of racial equality well past the middle of the 20th century. Oh and she should be allowed to wear the damn dress anyway because free speech blah blah blah. I'm still trying to figure out how I got through high school without ever being thrown out for my "Sex Pistols" t-shirt. I'm right there with you, jonmc, I spent my senior prom getting stoned in the high school parking lot with another loser friend. Ah, memories.

By: HyperBlue

HyperBlue — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:46:53 -0800

Quit makin funner mah gurl.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:49:16 -0800

I'm still trying to figure out how I got through high school without ever being thrown out for my "Sex Pistols" t-shirt. The only two suspensions based on dress code in my high school were some 19-year old junior waering an "Adolf Hitler World Tour" t-shirt and some guy who wore a shirt saying "Smile If Your Not wearing Panties." Some people are easily offended. I'm right there with you, jonmc, I spent my senior prom getting stoned in the high school parking lot with another loser friend. Don't bogart that thing, man. Truth be told, back in high school the only thing I would've noticed about RebelFlagDress Girl was that she had nice hooters.

By: TeamBilly

TeamBilly — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:53:44 -0800

Aw, hell, it won't even look like the confederate flag once it's hiked up around her hips on the 50-yard line under a linebacker named Bubba....

By: Slothrup

Slothrup — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:57:12 -0800

Assignment: compare reaction to this "free speech" thread with reaction to yesterday's Zappa "free speech" thread.

By: sotonohito

sotonohito — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:01:19 -0800

nightchrome: It constantly amazes me how many people are totally clueless about the whole North/South thing and think the South was somehow "evil". It constantly amazes me that people try to portray the Civil War as "North vs. South". It wasn't. Within the states that formed the CSA many individual counties seceded back to the USA. There was not a war of North vs. South, there was a war of the United States of America vs the Confederate States of America. Arguing that the Confederate States of America was not evil is pretty difficult. One of my ongoing (and utterly futile) meme wars is trying to stop the "North vs. South" crap. One of the myriad ways the Confederate apologists try to avoid discussing the Civil War in realistic terms is to linguistically deny that the CSA was fighting the United States of America; they say it was "Yankees" or "the North", or "the Union", anything to avoid saying "my ancestors killed US soldiers". Well, my ancestors *did* kill US soldiers, they were suckered. "The South" (whatever that is) is great, but the Confederate States of America was evil and was rightly crushed.

By: davy

davy — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:01:51 -0800

Me: Somehow she graduated from a Kentucky high school without learning that Kentucky was a Union state. Majcher: And there's davy, wrong again. Wrong about what, sir and/or ma'am? Certainly not about the status of Kentucky in 1860-1865. Kentucky, like my home state of Maryland, was a border state whose rebel chieftains could not succeed at secession. Maybe this belle is proud of her ancestors' failure to join the losing side. As to whether she should have been allowed to wear the dress, the answer is obviously yes: if she must advertise her status as the ignorant spawn of racist sore losers, of course she should be free to do so. Me, I'm proud of my West Virginian heritage: my ancestors seceded from the Confederates. "Why should we die for those flatland slavemasters? They shoulda picked their own damn cotton!"

By: cilantro

cilantro — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:01:53 -0800

I have a t-shirt with the confederate flag floating behind the disembodied head of jesus. I wear it because it's fucking HILARIOUS. My ex-girlfriend, who's half Black and half Thai, bought it for me. Seriously, though--I equate the people who consider the Confederate flag to be a symbol of "southern pride" with the people who put those fucking yellow or red-white-n-blue "support our troops" and "one nation under god" ribbon magnets on their S.U.V.'s. The girl's not a racist, at least no more of a racist than all the other mindless god-n-country republican types out there. Like them, she's just an idiot with horrible taste and no knowledge of history. Actually, pretty much just no knowledge at all. And since, no thanks to people like her, it's a free country and whatnot, she should have been allowed to wear that craptastically awful sequined mess. I wonder how much it cost to have it made? You know, she should have stuck a sequined disembodied head of jesus somewhere around the crotch area of the dress. THAT would have been high style indeed.

By: cosmonik

cosmonik — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:02:38 -0800

The only two suspensions based on dress code in my high school... Dammit, where I went to school, staff would engage you in hand-to-hand combat if your hair touched your collar (for males) or if your skirt hem was above the knee (for females). No wonder a disproportionate amount became neurotic finance/lawyer types. On preview: way ahead of you, Slothrup! Been thinking of that since this thing started. Then I rememberd how quickly the other one degenerated. Nazis still got mentioned in both, though, which is what really matters.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:03:29 -0800

slothrup: it's all about who's doing the speaking-one's political allies or ones political enemies. To me it makes no difference, the principle is the important thing. I imagine Frank Zappa (a man I would've gladly voted for for President) would agree. Especially since he was attacked by both the PMRC for "dirty words" and the ADL for "Jewish Princess"*, he knows that anyone can become the thought police. * which my Jewish girlfreind found uproariously funny

By: Bort

Bort — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:11:28 -0800

cosmonik: but don't you see the parallels there? Who's to say what is offensive and/or sexually harassing? The victim. If someone is made to feel uncomfortable through your actions, that can constitute sexual harassment. In the workplace, it's verbot. Yes, I can see what you're talking about, and there are areas that are fuzzy. Sexual harassment and flag waving, flying, burning, and dressmaking, like most areas, are not fuzzy (IMO). When I see "sexual harassment" I think of the traditional work place stuff - and that's what I'm talking about. If you have other things in mind, we can take them on a case by case basis. But (I believe) as far as the law is concerned, if it's outside the workplace, then it's not illegal to make you feel uncomfortable through my (verbal) actions - although it does make me an ass. Now if I lay a finger on you, then we have something else entirely.

By: davy

davy — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:15:22 -0800

the ignorant spawn of racist sore losers Which reminds me of more recent history: white racists citing that bullshit tome _The Bell Curve_, which had "Caucasians" figured as the third most intelligent "race". Weren't they so cute waving that silly Bronze Medal? "We're Number Three! We're Number THREE!"

By: fluffycreature

fluffycreature — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:16:50 -0800

I can't find the story online, but if you can find a copy of "The APPROPRIATION OF CULTURES" by Percival Everett, read it. It is a short story, and written very well. I first heard this story on Selected Shorts and fell in love with it. It provides a delicious and well written twist on the dixie flag and the meaning of it being co-opted by a black man. In the meantime I can't help but compare the arguments from this thread with that of Mr. Zappa. Wonder what he would think of the government kicking this student out.

By: cosmonik

cosmonik — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:17:19 -0800

What if one person had a t-shirt saying 'Make Me Dinner' (or any other witty mysogynistic zingers) and another had one with a confederate flag? Would one of them be acceptable and another not? Don't you measure all discrimination - and therefore disruption - on how it impacts those discriminated against? I think the fuzzy areas in this are all over the place, with few if any clear-cut cases on the extreme ends of the spectrum between offensive and acceptable. Why do you hate the (Confederate State of) America so much? (rhetorical question)

By: gyc

gyc — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:31:25 -0800

Isn't it ironic that many of the same people who cherish the Confederate flag and consider it a part of their heritage the same people that cry "Un-American!" when someone speaks out against the government, because doesn't that flag represent the "un-American" ancestors that seceded and fought against the Union?

By: dd42

dd42 — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:01:19 -0800

Man, we screwed up badly. Every confederate officer and politician should have hung. But, no, we had to be "reasonable." Because, obviously, creating a whole generation of martyrs and alienating a significant part of America for many, many years wouldn't have had bigger problems in the long run.

By: Witty

Witty — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:40:03 -0800

Oh, I completely agree that she should be allowed to wear it on a pure First Amerndment basis. I just don't much care for rednecks. I hear that. I feel the same way about niggers, nips and fags.

By: clevershark

clevershark — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:43:17 -0800

Perhaps she should also have come to the prom on her older brother's arm and carrying an earthenware jug of moonshine while she was at it. Hey, trashy is as trashy does.

By: craven_morhead

craven_morhead — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:00:10 -0800

I think they should strap her to the roof of the General Lee. Then the General Lee would be all nice and shiney. Witty, don't forget crackers and hos.

By: ludwig_van

ludwig_van — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:25:39 -0800

I'm not sure crying "first amendment" is appropriate here. As was pointed out earlier in the thread, public school students already have limited freedom of speech. The issue is whether or not her attire was "disrupting" the prom. I think there's a case that it was, though I don't necessarily agree that she shouldn't have been allowed in. But it's not such an obvious issue. People insisting that the confederate flag is about "southern pride" and is free of offensive connotation are being willfully ignorant at best.

By: superfem

superfem — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:41:03 -0800

I woke up this morning in my Kentucky house (not the same county as this girl) and saw this story and the garish dress on the front page of my Kentucky newspaper. Never would I have guessed that this pretty damn local story would be on Metafilter. Cool. Anyhow, to clear up some points of confusion: Kentucky as Union/Border State: Kentucky never left the Union officially, but its strong ties to the Confederacy kept it a straddler at heart--a border state and Union state in one! My elementary school social studies teachers used to love telling us stories about how choosing sides in the Civil War tore Kentucky families apart: in one family, some brothers would fight for the North and some would run away to fight for the South, forever bifurcating the family's soul. We all listened attentively, nodding and coloring in our line drawings of Henry Clay and Daniel Boone and tobacco plants. Black People in KY Schools: I went to a fairly "diverse" high school by (non-Louisville) Kentucky standards, which meant that black people were far from numerous. This girl went to school in an area far closer to Appalachia than me where black people tend to disappear as you head for the hills. The propensity for harm in her stepping out in a rebel flag dress was quite low I'd wager: not too many minorities on the other side of racism for her to worry about offending in that area (and most areas) of KY.

By: majcher

majcher — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:41:51 -0800

Who's to say what is offensive and/or sexually harassing? The victim. Really? Because I've got a long list of offensive shit I'd like to see banned. Just tell me who to send it to, and we can get right on that. davy: "The Lincoln administration regarded Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri as border states." Make with the clicky-clicky. In closing, I took my Dukes of Hazzard lunchbox to school for a long time, and nobody gave a crap. Unclench, people.

By: nola

nola — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:43:49 -0800

"After that it was nothing more than a raised middle finger to the rest of the country" "Perhaps she should also have come to the prom on her older brother's arm and carrying an earthenware jug of moonshine while she was at it." hahah its ok to reinforce stereotypes when they are directed at southern , poor, white people. "People insisting that the confederate flag is about "southern pride" and is free of offensive connotation are being willfully ignorant at best." well i guess you should get rid of the american flag then, since i'm sure it is about the most offensive flag in the world today. due to the fact that it represent international dominance and terror to all that do not kneel before its might. oh but wait, thats right its the emblem of the victor. and only those that have been crushed rise to the level of "offensive" "evil" ect. willfully ignorant? am i? do you think the civil war was as simple as good vs evil. if you are willing to salute the flag, despite its sometimes darker meaning, who are you to judge a southern heart? nola raises middle finger to the rest of the country.

By: ludwig_van

ludwig_van — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:52:01 -0800

well i guess you should get rid of the american flag then, since i'm sure it is about the most offensive flag in the world today. If a country felt we were their enemy, I wouldn't be surprised if they did so. But why would the US ban its own flag? The Confederacy was an enemy of the union and the champion of slavery. I don't think you have a point here. do you think the civil war was as simple as good vs evil. Is anything? No. Straw man. if you are willing to salute the flag, despite its sometimes darker meaning, who are you to judge a southern heart? Another straw man. I don't salute the flag or say the pledge. I try to avoid anything that seems to border on jingoism.

By: flarbuse

flarbuse — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:56:39 -0800

Black folks should take the power of the symbol away from the racists by wearing the Confederate flag on their clothing, etc. It would be fairly easy to make it a very popular trend in the black community. If 50 Cent or someone wore one or featured in prominently in one of his videos, then it would start a fashion trend. I would wager that you would see a lot less of them on white folks' bumber stickers and flagpoles once that happened. Seizing the power of language or symbols is not exactly unprecedented. It was done very effectively with the word "nigger," and, to a lesser extent with "faggot" and "motherfucker."

By: bugmuncher

bugmuncher — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:00:10 -0800

I have always wondered why it is not considered seditious to display an emblem of a nation that made war upon the U.S. That being said, since nobody else thinks it is seditious, she should be allowed to wear the dress to the prom. For one, you can't see the whole flag anyway; secondly, it's not the right dimensions to be a flag. And finally - it is a neat-looking pattern, regardless of whatever history may be associated with it. I used to think the Confederate Battle Flag was a symbol of racism, but I don't anymore. Plenty of racists fly that flag, as do plenty of classists and plenty of normal people proud of a military heritage, or proud of their southern ideology. It would be nice if there were some other truly southern symbol for people to use, but in this nation's short history, there's only one uniquely southern symbol that is well-recognized. I can't even remember the name of the Mississippi state tree, and I lived there briefly.

By: nola

nola — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:01:42 -0800

" I don't salute the flag or say the pledge. I try to avoid anything that seems to border on jingoism." that i can respect.

By: thirteen

thirteen — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:10:46 -0800

Black folks should take the power of the symbol away from the racists by wearing the Confederate flag on their clothing, etc. There was a line of clothing that did just that. About 5 years back. The red white and blue were replaced by green black and yellow. Did not catch on I guess. I think it is time to revisit and rethink the US flag. The one that waves now belongs to a different country that happens to occupy the same space in a different time. We have nothing in common with those people anymore, and they probably would not want to be associated with us. A new flag every generation maybe.

By: kickingtheground

kickingtheground — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:56:18 -0800

Seizing the power of language or symbols is not exactly unprecedented. It was done very effectively with the word "nigger," and, to a lesser extent with "faggot" and "motherfucker."

"Motherfucker?" Who reclaimed that word? The incestial?

By: Critical_Beatdown

Critical_Beatdown — Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:58:13 -0800

I remember about the time Malcolm X hats were big, I saw a t-sirt bearing the confederate flag saying "You wear your X and I'll wear mine." Sums it up for me. Just how many people did Malcom X have enslaved?

By: fenriq

fenriq — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:05:52 -0800

thirteen, why stop with a new flag, how about a new song, a new name, a new tree, a new capital, a new logo, a new slogan, new budget, new credit lines, new military, new wars, new corruption (better than the old corruption) and a new rap sheet? I've often wondered what it would be like if Washington disappeared. Maybe along with all the state capitals too. Poof, gone. How does the nation react? How does the world react?

By: nofundy

nofundy — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 06:19:08 -0800

What influenced the decision of which Confederate flag to model the dress after? Could it have anything to do with Nathan Bedford Forrest and his early adoption of this particular banner of the South? Is this the heritage of which they speak in racist code words?

By: flarbuse

flarbuse — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 06:38:58 -0800

"Motherfucker" was intended as a joke. Not necessarily a funny one, but a joke nonetheless.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 06:56:53 -0800

I remember about the time Malcolm X hats were big, I saw a t-sirt bearing the confederate flag saying "You wear your X and I'll wear mine." Sums it up for me. Just how many people did Malcom X have enslaved? It sums up the free speech issue, not the actual civil war, you half-wit.

By: nola

nola — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 07:40:49 -0800

i'm just going say this and then i'm done. the rebel flag and southern states where crushed, buy the north, and the true and rightful holders of american power. they marched into battle the USA. flag and all. after this USA war machine was done quelling the south, they turned west and murdered 20 million native americans. now i'm not saying that you can wave the rebel flag with out and reservations, but what i am saying is , the rebel flag represents a blip on the radar of evil and genocide. my point is all flags by the standers you all have set are offensive. i'm against power holders in the world pushing us little people around, the power holders of the south were put down, but the rebel flag has come to symbolize resistance against the emerging world power that is the USA. it stands for southern resistance of northern aggression and is a constant reminder of the price of empire building. people who are worried about the offensive nature of the rebel flag are like old people pissing up a pole about rock and roll music, it is supposed to be offensive. offensive mostly to rich white folk, since our neighbors, black&white , are to busy putting food on the table to be drawn in by these him minded arguments. i'm southern , hardworking , and proud. i share that with anyone from the south , and if you don't like it stay up there in Yankee land. the last time you all came down here you burned our cities down. .

By: Sidhedevil

Sidhedevil — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:02:56 -0800

Did the South rebel against grammatical aggression as well? Unless Flag-Dress Girl and nola are an army of two, it appears that they did. Damn that Sherman for burning all the grammar-book depositories!

By: JollyWanker

JollyWanker — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:03:05 -0800

nola: the rebel flag has come to symbolize resistance against the emerging world power that is the USA That's the lamest and most willfully ignorant excuse for flying the Stars-and-Bars I've ever heard, and I've heard a lot of lame, willfully ignorant excuses for it since my parents retired to the upstate of South Carolina from New England. Best stick to putting food on the table and leave the Consitutional arguments to the grown ups.

By: Secret Life of Gravy

Secret Life of Gravy — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:12:38 -0800

I think she should have worn the dress. I'm sure that no one would have been surprised. A girl like this doesn't keep her opinions to herself. To northerners the stars and bars are a symbol of slavery, to southerners, it's a symbol of being southern, a cultural identity What few people will admit to is that the whole "Southern Culture" thing isn't just peaches, mint juleps and pretty belles in ball gowns. There is a whiff of nostalgia for the good old days-- the days "when those darkies knew their place and we didn't have to mingle with them. We didn't have to shop with them or eat with them or go to school with them." Most of the North Carolinians who went to war (and this state sent nearly one fourth of all the troops that fought on the confederate side) didn't own slaves. But they didn't mingle too much with them either.

By: bshort

bshort — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:40:16 -0800

It's a free speech issue. She should be allowed to wear it. We should be able to call her a traitor.

By: dwivian

dwivian — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:22:08 -0800

Because, obviously, creating a whole generation of martyrs and alienating a significant part of America for many, many years wouldn't have had bigger problems in the long run. Because, certainly, reconstruction didn't create martyrs and certainly didn't alienate a signification part of America for many, many years....

By: dwivian

dwivian — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:22:43 -0800

I've got to side with the Free Speech people -- you have a right to express yourself. Just be prepared for others to express themselves about your stupidity.

By: davy

davy — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:32:20 -0800

The only two suspensions based on dress code in my high school were some 19-year old junior waering an "Adolf Hitler World Tour" t-shirt and some guy who wore a shirt saying "Smile If Your Not wearing Panties." Some people are easily offended. Maybe whoever suspended the second kid was embarrassed by the evident fact that a decade of English classes had been wasted. But then in 7th grade I had fun correcting what my English teacher wrote on the blackboard. "Your/you're" was a favorite.

By: Critical_Beatdown

Critical_Beatdown — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:36:35 -0800

Just how many people did Malcolm X have enslaved? It sums up the free speech issue, not the actual civil war, you half-wit. Ah, I see, comparing apples and oranges was a great way to sum it all up. Thanks for the ad hominem. But a half wit would have thought I was talking about the Civil War, which I didn't refer to.

By: davy

davy — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:56:10 -0800

Majcher: The very simple point is that Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri and Delaware were border states that did NOT secede to the Confederacy but remained in the Union. Also try to understand that West Virginia had been the western part of Virginia, that is part of a Rebel state, that separated from the eastern counties to remain in the Union (as Ulster split from Ireland to remain faithful to the King).

By: angry modem

angry modem — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:58:22 -0800

So what if her lifelong aspiration had been to wear a KKK uniform to her prom? Is that freedom of expression or an incitement to violence? It's no more of an incitement to violence than the American flag, the British flag, the Texas Lone Star, or any of that shit.

By: davy

davy — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:00:40 -0800

By: TheSpook

TheSpook — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:18:57 -0800

Sure, I'm saying that the issue is (or should be) whether or not the dress caused disruption to the learning process. That's what the Tinker decision was about anyway. The dance may take place on school property, but school is not in session. My experience with what constitutes school property is a bit different. Back in high school I was suspended after I called a secretary a "bitch" over the phone, while at my home. So I doubt if there will be any legal arguments along the lines of "school wasn't in session."

By: oaf

oaf — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:41:51 -0800

General Sherman was probably the worst American war criminal ever to have existed. The states did did secede. Otherwise, why did they have to be readmitted? She should be allowed to wear it. We should be able to call her a traitor. Same goes for anyone who wears a Union Jack. We fought them for longer. The very simple point is that Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri and Delaware were border states that did NOT secede to the Confederacy but remained in the Union. Which reminds me of another thing: slavery was legal in the United States after it was illegal in the Confederate States. Lincoln didn't bother ordering the slaves in the non-seceding states emancipated.

By: davy

davy — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:48:47 -0800

and if you don't like it stay up there in Yankee land. the last time you all came down here you burned our cities down Oh is that what explains Colonial Williamsburg and Disney World?

By: Kleptophoria!

Kleptophoria! — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:19:31 -0800

Kleptophoia!: Honestly, World War II was all about the fight against bankers. It had nothing to do with oppressing people. jonmc: Tell that to the troops that liberated the death camps, junior jonmc, it's still not too late for me to send you humour/satire/sarcasm/metal detactors for Christmas. I can't believe you didn't get that one. Wow. You know the stereotype about Jews being bankers? War against bankers? Honestly, I'm kind of disappointed. Anyway, you might find that you've just supported my position on both the Confederate and Nazi flags. Also, is it legal to fly a Nazi flag in the United States? In Canada the swastika tends to get people in legal trouble. We're always trying to add new things to our hate laws to further stamp out free speech. (Although if I've been reading Metafilter right for the past few years, it seems America's the place with free speech problems.) And comparing the Confederate flag to the flag of any long established country is silly. The Confederate flag basically represented a movement within the United States, and never was really able to establish itself as a nation-state. It's not like the French or British flag, both of which have all sorts of history of good and evil. The Confederate flag has a short and specific history of only one sort.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:34:43 -0800

jonmc, it's still not too late for me to send you humour/satire/sarcasm/metal detactors for Christmas. If people need one to get your jokes, then maybe you're just not that funny, shecky.

By: davy

davy — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:34:52 -0800

The Confederate flag has a short and specific history of only one sort. What about its 150-year history -- i.e. 145 years, or 30 times, longer than the Confederacy lasted -- as an emblem of White racialism?

By: davy

davy — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:38:18 -0800

angry modem wrote: It's no more of an incitement to violence than the American flag, the British flag, the Texas Lone Star, or any of that shit. Tell that to the KKK -- or its victims. Have you heard of "lynching"?

By: wheat

wheat — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:01:27 -0800

sotonohito: > I am continually amazed that my fellow southerners > feel compelled to claim that the Confederate battle flag > is something other than an emblem of slavery, racism, > and the fact that their ancestors were conned into > fighting for a cause that wasn't in their own best > interests. Amen to that. I'm a southerner, and every other person I know thinks that displaying confederate flags is, at best, tacky and, at worst, an open display of ignorance and racism. jonmc: > a new southern identity needs to be created, one > that embraces the good things about the south > (the food, the music, the open manners) and discards > the bad (the racism, the intolerance, the economic > oppression). I think jonmc hits the nail on the head here. People who are from the south and like it and, for whatever reason, see some need to celebrate that with a symbol of some sort, don't have many options. But the confederate flag just has too much baggage. Despite the problems of the south and its past, which no one should try to deny or downplay, there are plenty of good things about its culture. The cross-burnin' rednecks are not the majority. They are just the popular stereotype.

By: Sidhedevil

Sidhedevil — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:07:01 -0800

wheat, right on. Even though there are many things to admire about Confederate soldiers' personal bravery, etc., I share your belief that the "Confederate flag just has too much baggage", especially because of its co-option by the Ku Klux Klan. It would be great if there could be a Flag of the New South.

By: davy

davy — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:17:54 -0800

Superfem: "This girl went to school in an area far closer to Appalachia than me where black people tend to disappear as you head for the hills." Sorry, but as a hillbilly-heritaged scion of Appalachia myself I'm happy to point out that Russell County is far from the hills. Its Wikipedia article. Note the map. And the Kentucky counties with the highest ratio of Blacks to Whites line the Mississippi River in the southwestern part of the state, a long way from Louisville.

By: davy

davy — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:29:42 -0800

AHEM. I'm prepared to be embarrassed: my girlfriend, a native Kentuckian-Appalachian, just said "Oh, I thought it was Russell Independent School District, in the northeast part of the state." And, uh, yeah, they might have meant Russell , a town in Greenup County. But I'm still correct about the Civil War: no secession, and so no Reconstruction, here.

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:30:39 -0800

whatever reason, see some need to celebrate that with a symbol of some sort, don't have many options. What about her own State flag which pancakes her dress? United We Stand Divided We Fall.

By: Sidhedevil

Sidhedevil — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:22:28 -0800

Wow. Is that flag meant to depict Lincoln hitting on Daniel Boone? Apparently, it's not only the "darkies" who are gay in Kentucky.

By: dhoyt

dhoyt — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:55:55 -0800

I liked the dress.

By: gesamtkunstwerk

gesamtkunstwerk — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:17:28 -0800

What amuses me is that this young woman is alleging that the notoriety of this incident has harmed her. I think the decision to bar this dress from the prom was an attempt in loco parentis to head off an ugly incident at the prom that could have humiliated her, or spoiled the prom for others. I wonder what Miss Duty's response would have been if she were ridiculed and snubbed by her peers, beaten up, or worse, if her dress had incited a conflict that polarized her senior class?

By: Sidhedevil

Sidhedevil — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:27:38 -0800

Well, I would hope that the school administration would keep classmates from beating each other up, even over egregious displays of bad taste and poor fashion choices.

By: Sparx

Sparx — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 17:05:18 -0800

What many people aren't noticing is that this dress is touching her arse. Wiping your posterior with a flag is always going to be offensive to some people. She should obviously have worn the flag as a cape, not only so that it could be removed at times of intense principal displeasure, but also so she could play Superman later.

By: bingo

bingo — Wed, 22 Dec 2004 17:10:48 -0800

TheSpook: My experience with what constitutes school property is a bit different. Back in high school I was suspended after I called a secretary a "bitch" over the phone, while at my home. So I doubt if there will be any legal arguments along the lines of "school wasn't in session." That's really beside the point, because the supreme court has made a specific ruling regarding what you can or cannot wear to school, and the context of that ruling has everything to do with school being in session. You were suspended for something that had nothing to do with what you wore to school, so your punishment falls under a completely different set of rules.

By: davy

davy — Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:27:50 -0800

What amuses me is that this young woman is alleging that the notoriety of this incident has harmed her. Verily verily, that be some funny shit. A very good point there.

By: echolalia67

echolalia67 — Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:37:13 -0800

Nola:the last time you all came down here you burned our cities down. No, the last time I went down there I managed to drink like a fish and yet not have a hangover, (thanks to my 1 pint of water to every alcoholic beverage strategy), unlike the time before that when I drank 5 boilermakers and an additional 2 pints of beer. Both times I was far too drunk to successfully light a match.

By: gesamtkunstwerk

gesamtkunstwerk — Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:56:10 -0800

Nola:the last time you all came down here you burned our cities down. Well actually, the last time I came down there, you raped my grandmother and sold my grandfather. (Well, actually not, but your proud southerners did. Ad hominem attacks tend to invite the same). And finally, very few African Americans are NOT offended by the stars and bars.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:40:24 -0800

actually, I mentioned this whole thing to my Chicago Southside raised African-American buddy at the next desk at work (who would have no problem telling me if I was fulla shit) and he shrugged and said "It's her heritage, man."

By: Sidhedevil

Sidhedevil — Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:02:52 -0800

I don't think we're trying to get a comprehensive survey of every African American, jonmc--your co-worker's opinion doesn't cancel out gesamtkunstwerk's, even statistically. (And gesamtkunstwerk, that remark was eloquent AND snarky AND educational. A trifecta in my book.)