Comments on: Lest we forget

Lest we forget

wilful — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:04:31 -0800

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old; Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning We will remember them.

By: wilful

wilful — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:05:47 -0800

well it's 11.04 here. So that's 3 minutes after a minute's silence. Lest we forget the stupidity of war.

By: wilful

wilful — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:09:45 -0800

Truly the worst last post that I've heard.

By: russilwvong

russilwvong — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:12:24 -0800

George F. Kennan, "The War to End War" (1984): Sixty-six years ago, on the 11th of November 1918, there ended that four-year orgy of carnage known as the First World War. When the shooting ceased, some 8.5 million young men lay dead and buried either in Flanders Fields or near the other great battlefields of the war. Over 20 million more had been injured--many of them maimed for life. Nearly 8 million were listed as missing or as having been taken prisoner. Of those who survived, countless thousands were to return to their homelands shattered ("shell-shocked" was then the word), confused, and desperate, to face the problems of daily life in a society impoverished morally and materially by the enormous wastage the war had involved. And for every one of those who had died, there were now others, loved and loving, including outstandingly the parents, for whom a large part of the meaning of life had evaporated with the news of the particular death in question. Europe, in short (and with it, in far smaller degree, the United States), had perpetrated a vast injury on its own substance: the sacrifice of the greatest capital it possessed, a flesh-and-blood capital--the cream of its young male manpower of the day, besides which the tremendous economic wastage of the struggle pales to insignificance. No human mind will ever be capable of apprehending the magnitude of this tragedy. The numbers exceed the individual capacity for imagination. The computer would not know what to make of them. The tragedy of each individual young soldier, cut off in the flower of his years, deprived of the privilege of leading a life through, carrying away with him into the agony and squalor of his battlefield death all that he thought he had been living for and all the hopes and love invested in him by others, was in itself immeasurable--infinite in its way. And then--8 million of them? And of course World War I led to the collapse of the Russian government and the Bolshevik revolution; the rise of the Nazis in Germany; and World War II.

By: Saydur

Saydur — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:14:11 -0800

This was the war to end all wars. If only that were so.

By: Jimbob

Jimbob — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:33:43 -0800

Well, I just got back from a firedrill that they decided to call at 10:55am. So there was no silence around this office.

By: orthogonality

orthogonality — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:42:11 -0800

By: movilla

movilla — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:46:57 -0800

A list of current war zones.

By: fire&wings

fire&wings — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:50:00 -0800

By: Jimbob

Jimbob — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:56:07 -0800

When I was a young man I carried my pack And I lived the free life of the rover. From the Murray's green basin to the dusty outback I waltzed my Matilda all over. Then in nineteen fifteen the country said, "Son, It's time to stop rambling, there's work to be done." And they gave me a tin hat and they gave me a gun, And they marched me away to the war.

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:58:54 -0800

White poppies.

By: pompomtom

pompomtom — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:02:38 -0800

By: unrepentanthippie

unrepentanthippie — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:07:29 -0800

By: bramoire

bramoire — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:08:11 -0800

Thanks Jimbob, I'd forgotten that song. Triple J just played a version of "I was only 19" around 11, they should have played Bogle instead.

By: Jimbob

Jimbob — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:20:21 -0800

(The Pogues version is my favourite...)

By: Malor

Malor — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:24:29 -0800

I'd post the lyrics to the Gulf War Song by Moxy Fruvous, but it's a song you really have to hear... reading it just doesn't work. I'd suggest trying to find it online, it's worth a listen. Why, why, do we keep doing this over and over?

By: fire&wings

fire&wings — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:24:54 -0800

This is a great site for some reflection.

By: snsranch

snsranch — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:42:39 -0800

By: halcyon_daze

halcyon_daze — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:44:00 -0800

Why, why, do we keep doing this over and over? War is the health of the state.

By: IndigoJones

IndigoJones — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:45:59 -0800

The author, for the record.

By: wilful

wilful — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:50:29 -0800

But not a day ever goes by when a life isn't given up for the sake of a country. Cheers and a salute to you! And here I think that that's the cause of the problem.

By: bramoire

bramoire — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:53:38 -0800

Dulce Et Decorum Est

By: jmgorman

jmgorman — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:59:27 -0800

Here is a short cheer and rememberance for the folks around the world who serve today. The world's nations have been in worse shape and better too. But not a day ever goes by when a life isn't given up for the sake of a country. Cheers and a salute to you! Christ - can't you people look at this and see the futility and moral bankrupcy of war instead of flying a flay and saying "Yay - heroic sacrifice." There was nothing heroic about the deaths of those at Flanders, Verdun and Gallipoli - it was blood on the hands pure greed and chauvanism. May God bless those men, but God help those who put more men to their fate.

By: Joey Michaels

Joey Michaels — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:59:45 -0800

It is interesting to me that there has been so much interest on Metafilter in WWI of late. While this post is a little light on content, I think it is always worth remembering that much of the civilized world was embroiled in this senseless war for years - and thought, at least at the start, that that was a very good idea indeed. One of the most moving stories from World War I was that of The Vanished Battalion, which was excellently dramatized in the movie All The King's Men. Though the details of their history have been disputed, for me, their story captures the sad, sad stupidty The Great War.

By: Joey Michaels

Joey Michaels — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:05:52 -0800

"of The Great War." So much for my attempt at armchair profundity.

By: bramoire

bramoire — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:10:20 -0800

There was nothing heroic about the deaths of those at Flanders, Verdun and Gallipoli Sure there was. I completely agree that war is futile (in most cases) but that doesn't take anything away from the heroism people display during times of crisis. You don't even have to be killing people

By: Jimbob

Jimbob — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:17:25 -0800

1. There was nothing heroic about the deaths . . . 2. Sure there was. . . Is death in war always heroic? I mean, automatically? That's the problem I have the labels like "hero" being thrown around, especially on ANZAC day here in Australia. Death in war is always tragic. Heroic acts often take place in wars. But the idea that anyone who dies in a war is a automatically hero sounds like patriotic martyrdom to me. I'm much more inclined to consider them victims. Which is the divergence of thought that's slowly coming to light in this thread...I remember, during Rememberance Day at school, when we sat down for our two minutes silence, that I felt we were remembering the tragedy, the futility, the lifes lost, the pointlessness of sending young men to be cannon fodder. It was many years later that I realised a lot of people associated ANZAC and rememberance day with something different...national pride, heroism, patriotism, bravery. That still disturbs me, somehow. Are we remembering old battles out of national pride, or out of a desire to prevent the same thing ever happening again?

By: Malor

Malor — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:24:05 -0800

halcyon, when was that written? The style feels like it must be in the 20s or 30s, but damn, the thinking is from last week. Great stuff.

By: tellurian

tellurian — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:24:14 -0800

I'll be spending some time browsing this site. A huge resource containing the fantastic and the humorous, as well as the tragic [graphic warning on that last one].

By: dilettante

dilettante — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:27:23 -0800

Joey Michaels writes: It is interesting to me that there has been so much interest on Metafilter in WWI of late. The interest in that war seems to have increased throughout the popular culture in the past few years. I think that the war was so stupid and shocking and senseless, and the memory so painful, that after the first decade or so immediately following the war, it really couldn't be addressed again until the last people who fought in it, and most of those who remembered it, were gone. Interest in Vietnam has similarly fallen off lately, from what it was in the mid-80s - perhaps that will also see a revival around 2050.

By: dilettante

dilettante — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:29:43 -0800

Damn it, there was supposed to be an < /a> after "writes". Damn it.

By: coriolisdave

coriolisdave — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:35:04 -0800

By: wilful

wilful — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:37:54 -0800

Jimbob expresses the split right. I always thought that we remembered so that we'd avoid it in the future, not so that we'd have a national chest beating day.

By: marxchivist

marxchivist — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:42:12 -0800

Hard to believe that many people were killed in four years. A relatively short war.

By: kalimac

kalimac — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:47:35 -0800

How can I not add this?

By: Gator

Gator — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:50:03 -0800

What have we learned, Charlie Brown?

By: soiled cowboy

soiled cowboy — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:52:33 -0800

By: bunglin jones

bunglin jones — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:52:57 -0800

I'm with you, Jimbob, but I get the feeling that more and more people are feeling - and speaking out about - the sadness of ANZAC day. I can't quantify this and maybe it's just my being optimistic about mindless flagwaving being on the decline, but I think there's a chance that one day ANZAC day will be a sort of Day of Peace in Australia. My experience growing up was exactly the same - and my parents, as migrants to Australia, also felt the sadness and grief of the ANZAC story much more than they did the "three cheers for dying in vain" thing that's always being pushed. And maybe all the interest in WWI of late has been a result of there being more Australians using the site. Australia has a sort of national obsession with The First World War and, like Jimbob, I sometimes find it hard to tell exactly why it's so.

By: halcyon_daze

halcyon_daze — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:57:51 -0800

Malor: "A tiny twisted unscared ghost in a black cloak hopping along the grimy old brick and brownstone streets still left in downtown New York, crying out in a shrill soundless giggle: War is the health of the state."

By: TedW

TedW — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:59:45 -0800

tellurian: great site in the midst of a great post. Threads like this hooked me on MeFi way back when.

By: cerebus19

cerebus19 — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:08:03 -0800

William McBride, also by Eric Bogle.

By: Cyrano

Cyrano — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:11:35 -0800

Siegfried Sassoon is one of the only poets I've ever really liked.

By: bunglin jones

bunglin jones — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:13:47 -0800

and tellurian: great site

By: Cyrano

Cyrano — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:14:34 -0800

(And I mean poets in general, not just war poets...)

By: davy

davy — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:31:34 -0800

World War One: I think of that as the war where the French and British ran hundreds of thousands of men right into German machine guns. Talk about war crimes. And about dilettante's comment, it sounds like it might be true but I'm not sure. It does seem like there have been more (English language) books (both fictional and scholarly) and movies about WW2 than WW1, but I haven't done a thorough survey nor do I know how to. Can y'all war history buffs out there provide any info and/or links on which wars were most written about and when? What is the pattern (if any) and what does it mean? I think I see this with other kinds of events, like the Great Famine gets less attention than the Black Death 30 years later. That could be because it's more "romantic" to break out in sores and keel over than to slowly starve to death, or it could be for no real reason at all.

By: lalochezia

lalochezia — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:00:14 -0800

. . . The bourne essay should be required reading for political pundits, demagogues, nationalists and every goddan human on this planet.

By: docgonzo

docgonzo — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:05:31 -0800

John Brown went off to war to fight on a foreign shore. His mama sure was proud of him! He stood straight and tall in his uniform and all. His mama's face broke out all in a grin. "Oh son, you look so fine, I'm glad you're a son of mine, You make me proud to know you hold a gun. Do what the captain says, lots of medals you will get, And we'll put them on the wall when you come home." As that old train pulled out, John's ma began to shout, Tellin' ev'ryone in the neighborhood: "That's my son that's about to go, he's a soldier now, you know." She made well sure her neighbors understood. She got a letter once in a while and her face broke into a smile As she showed them to the people from next door. And she bragged about her son with his uniform and gun, And these things you called a good old-fashioned war. Oh! Good old-fashioned war! Then the letters ceased to come, for a long time they did not come. They ceased to come for about ten months or more. Then a letter finally came saying, "Go down and meet the train. Your son's a-coming home from the war." She smiled and went right down, she looked everywhere around But she could not see her soldier son in sight. But as all the people passed, she saw her son at last, When she did she could hardly believe her eyes. Oh his face was all shot up and his hand was all blown off And he wore a metal brace around his waist. He whispered kind of slow, in a voice she did not know, While she couldn't even recognize his face! Oh! Lord! Not even recognize his face. "Oh tell me, my darling son, pray tell me what they done. How is it you come to be this way?" He tried his best to talk but his mouth could hardly move And the mother had to turn her face away. "Don't you remember, Ma, when I went off to war You thought it was the best thing I could do? I was on the battleground, you were home . . . acting proud. You wasn't there standing in my shoes." "Oh, and I thought when I was there, God, what am I doing here? I'm a-tryin' to kill somebody or die tryin'. But the thing that scared me most was when my enemy came close And I saw that his face looked just like mine." Oh! Lord! Just like mine! "And I couldn't help but think, through the thunder rolling and stink, That I was just a puppet in a play. And through the roar and smoke, this string is finally broke, And a cannon ball blew my eyes away." As he turned away to walk, his Ma was still in shock At seein' the metal brace that helped him stand. But as he turned to go, he called his mother close And he dropped his medals down into her hand.

By: marxchivist

marxchivist — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:21:32 -0800

Can y'all war history buffs out there provide any info and/or links on which wars were most written about and when? That is an interesting question and I hope someone better than I can figure it out. An extremely informal survey consisting of a google search for "most written about war," reveals more people claiming the American Civil War is the most written about war, with the Second World War running a close second. The LOC seems to be down for maintenance, and I tried WorldCat and only got about 140 hits for World War -- 1939-1945 (I believe that is LOC subject heading for that particular war). In my American-centric, living in the South opinion, I'd have to say the American Civil War is the most written about war (in the English language), but I think WWII may have it beat with all the books written in England and Australia. For my WWI reading I enjoy Lyn MacDonald, and of course, Wilfred Owen. I'm going to keep digging around on this question.

By: marxchivist

marxchivist — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:23:16 -0800

I consider books written in Australia and England as being written in English, I just kind of second-guessed my Civil War guess there mid-post.

By: bramoire

bramoire — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:27:40 -0800

And maybe all the interest in WWI of late has been a result of there being more Australians using the site. Australia has a sort of national obsession with The First World War and, like Jimbob, I sometimes find it hard to tell exactly why it's so. Well all the scholars point to WW1 being the first great national endeavour following federation. While we fought 'for empire' we also fought under the Australian flag as Australians. It was completely wasteful, and apart from our allegience to Britain, had nothing to do with us, but it was the first time Australians were on the world stage as Australians. The Bourne makes some cogent points about that.

By: bramoire

bramoire — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:28:43 -0800

Whoops. The Bourne essay makes some cogent points about that.

By: kjs3

kjs3 — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:32:45 -0800

One of the canonical poems of the First World War... Dulce Et Decorum Est by Wilfred Owen Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs And towards our distant rest began to trudge. Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind; Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots Of disappointed shells that dropped behind. GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling, Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time; But someone still was yelling out and stumbling And floundering like a man in fire or lime.-- Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light As under a green sea, I saw him drowning. In all my dreams, before my helpless sight, He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning. If in some smothering dreams you too could pace Behind the wagon that we flung him in, And watch the white eyes writhing in his face, His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin; If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs, Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,-- My friend, you would not tell with such high zest To children ardent for some desperate glory, The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori. The Latin is, roughly, "it is sweet (or good) and right to die for your country".

By: davy

davy — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:42:16 -0800

Thanks Marxchivist, including hints at how to look that stuff up myself. I'd forgotten one could search the Library of Congress listings online; I still sometimes catch myself looking for punch cards in library books.

By: moonbird

moonbird — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:43:11 -0800

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:48:42 -0800

this poem by robert service always struck a note for me ... country joe mcdonald put it to music rather effectively in the early 70s

By: orthogonality

orthogonality — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:49:07 -0800

kjs3 writes "The Latin is, roughly, 'it is sweet (or good) and right to die for your country'." Or often rendered as "It is sweet and fitting...." A different English translation of Horace's original can be found here.

By: S.C.

S.C. — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:58:37 -0800

In Flanders fields the poppies blow Between the crosses, row on row, That mark our place; and in the sky The larks, still bravely singing, fly, Scarce heard amid the guns below. We are the Dead. Short days ago We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow, Loved, and were loved, and now we lie, In Flanders fields. Take up our quarrel with the foe: To you from failing hands we throw The torch; be yours to hold it high. If ye break faith with us who die We shall not sleep, though poppies grow In Flanders fields.

By: kjs3

kjs3 — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:01:29 -0800

Or often rendered as "It is sweet and fitting...." Or any of a dozen other translations Google will happily provide you. When I said "roughly" in my original post, I did in fact mean "regardless of what some might think, you don't need to have the perfect translation of this to understand what Owen was trying to tell you".

By: nola

nola — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:14:20 -0800

By: muckster

muckster — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:32:14 -0800

I remember reading that the number of wars in the world has actually declined dramatically in the recent past. Can anybody back me up on this?

By: orthogonality

orthogonality — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:01:16 -0800

"I can envision a small cottage somewhere, with a lot of writing paper, and a dog, and a fireplace and maybe enough money to give myself some Irish coffee now and then and entertain my two friends." -- 2nd Lieutenant Richard Van de Geer, letter to friend before he was killed, May 15, 1975, officially last American to die in the Vietnam War

By: stray

stray — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:12:31 -0800

By: hototogisu

hototogisu — Fri, 11 Nov 2005 00:00:34 -0800

Break of Day in the Trenches, by Isaac Rosenberg...

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Fri, 11 Nov 2005 02:30:07 -0800

I always thought that we remembered so that we'd avoid it in the future, not so that we'd have a national chest beating day. Yeah, the combining of remembrance with jingoism is why I wear a white poppy instead of a red one. There was a rather good discussion on the Today programme this morning, with Ben Elton and the Director General of the British Legion talking about attitudes to Remembrance Day, and the reluctance of young people to wear poppies. (I was half asleep at the time, so am not entirely sure why Ben Elton of all people was involved.)

By: spazzm

spazzm — Fri, 11 Nov 2005 04:30:01 -0800

I remember reading that the number of wars in the world has actually declined dramatically in the recent past. Can anybody back me up on this? I can't back that up but it would make sense from an evolutionary standpoint - gradually, the bearers of "gullible genes (which makes it more likely that the bearer will approve of or volontarily participate in a war) gets killed, reducing the prevalence of these genes in the overall gene pool. This could, on average, lead to a lower frequency of wars. Now, if you consider the fact that the american genepool was largely spared the wholesale slaugter of the first and second world wars, you have one possible explanation of some fairly recent global political events...

By: iso_bars

iso_bars — Fri, 11 Nov 2005 04:31:37 -0800

What passing-bells for these who die as cattle?

By: alumshubby

alumshubby — Fri, 11 Nov 2005 04:48:18 -0800

This thread's mostly been about Big Mistake One, but here, in the guise of a movie review, is a very short vignette from the sequel.

By: IndigoJones

IndigoJones — Fri, 11 Nov 2005 04:55:39 -0800

not entirely sure why Ben Elton of all people was involved Possibly because of Blackadder Goes Forth

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:46:21 -0800

Crap post saved by great comments. Thanks for the links, [set that excludes wilful].

By: cass

cass — Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:58:20 -0800

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 11 Nov 2005 11:19:02 -0800

By: pracowity

pracowity — Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:43:06 -0800

Was WWII the last war in which the dead were buried on the battlefields instead of (eventually) brought home? (By the way, I just learned about that the Kipling's son's grave was discovered in 1992. I thought he had been lost forever.)

By: davy

davy — Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:56:12 -0800

There died a myriad, And of the best, among them, For an old bitch gone in the teeth, For a botched civilization, Charm, smiling at the good mouth, Quick eyes gone under earth's lid, For two gross of broken statues, For a few thousand battered books. -Ezra Pound

By: bobbyelliott

bobbyelliott — Sun, 13 Nov 2005 11:28:02 -0800

I have a personal story to tell of the First World War. My grandfather (also Robert James - as I am) was allowed home to tend to his pregnant wife (my grandmother). After she gave birth (to my father), she was unwell and my grandfather did not return to his post so that he could take care of her. The Military Police arrived a few days later and offered him Hobson's Choice - return to the front or go to jail. He made the wrong decision. He was carted-off to the frontline in the Somme where he was blown up in the early days of the campaign. His body was never found and my grandmother always hoped that he would return - but he never did. He gave his life for what?

By: wilful

wilful — Sun, 13 Nov 2005 14:25:08 -0800

gee thanks for your constructive criticism, klangklangston. Or rather, go fuck yourself.

By: IndigoJones

IndigoJones — Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:22:58 -0800

not entirely sure why Ben Elton of all people was involved Blackadder and most likely this.