Comments on: What's a Coastie?

What's a Coastie?

escabeche — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 19:41:17 -0800

What's a Coastie? Two University of Wisconsin undergrads record and post to YouTube an ode to "Coasties," out-of-state students who live in expensive off-campus apartments, wear Spandex tights with Uggs, spend their parents' money on designer handbags and Starbucks, and -- oh yeah, like 15% of their classmates but only 1 in 200 Wisconsin natives, are Jews. Controversy ensues.

By: loquacious

loquacious — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 19:52:53 -0800

It has often been said: "If you give them enough rope, they'll hang themselves." But why should they? Maybe they'll create an unbelievably elegant arrangement of rope; an impossibly monumental construction of coiled vision which could only be classified as rope sculpture, stretching a timeless strand of understanding between us and posterity. ...and then they'll hang themselves from it.

By: thejoshu

thejoshu — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 19:56:18 -0800

By the looks of it, these two jokers will fit in just fine when they inevitably move to Williamsburg after they graduate.

By: decagon

decagon — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:00:07 -0800

Unless they end up in the Hasidic half.

By: pla

pla — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:06:09 -0800

Not every community welcomes diversity. Welcome to reality rather than some feel-good fantasy mockery thereof.

By: CitrusFreak12

CitrusFreak12 — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:11:36 -0800

Ha, at URI we call them Jersey Girls, due to the huge numbers of students from Jersey who go to school here--we also call URI the "University of New Jersey, Rhode Island Campus." But there are plenty of native Rhode Islanders and students from other states who fit the stereotype as well. Big ass sunglasses--I suppose, but those are far more ubiquitous these days so not so much--spandex as a replacement for pants (with no butt- or crotch-coverage), Ugg boots year round, black North Face jackets, skin that is orange and/or overly (fake) tanned, hair that is either naturally dark and poorly dyed blonde or blonde and poorly dyed brunette (go figure), and said hair is sported with poorly done bangs pinned up in a bump that poofs out several inches above their heads. As far as I know we've never associated the stereotype with any religion.

By: autoclavicle

autoclavicle — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:16:20 -0800

In their defense, Wisconsin is a cesspool of drunken idiots. A smart drunk goes to UW for 4 or 5 years and then moves on with their life. The locals stay (or stagger over to Minnesota), collect DUIs, and act bitter about it.

By: vorpal bunny

vorpal bunny — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:22:01 -0800

We had these girls at the University of Colorado (though we called them Easties). Just as CitrusFreak said though, we didn't associate them with any particular religion.

By: craichead

craichead — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:25:52 -0800

Huh. I have a (Catholic) friend who got a master's at Madison maybe ten years ago, and he swears that the whole anti-coasts thing he encountered there was actually barely-coded antisemitism. I always assumed he was being oversensitive, but it looks like maybe not.

By: Dasein

Dasein — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:27:56 -0800

"Jewish American Princess" is anti-Semitic now? I guess I know a lot of anti-Semitic Jews. I went to a relatively small liberal arts university in a smaller city, and I plenty of people - including Jews - remarked on the nature of rich big-city girls who fit roughly the stereotype described here, many of whom were Jewish (and made a point of talking a lot about how Jewish they were). It's just the way it was - why should people have to pretend it's otherwise? This doesn't strike me as an attempt to stigmatize Jews, but a pretty mild attempt at a comic articulation of how one group of people sees another. I guess I might feel differently if I were Jewish, but the people objecting to this strike me as exceptionally thin-skinned.

By: Corduroy

Corduroy — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:28:14 -0800

Did that article quoted in the controversy link really need to abbreviate "Jewish American Princess" with JAP? That coastie video just isn't funny.

By: ChurchHatesTucker

ChurchHatesTucker — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:28:38 -0800

Ooh, I'm loving the dancing around this.

By: craichead

craichead — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:40:08 -0800

I guess I might feel differently if I were Jewish,

Ya think?

but the people objecting to this strike me as exceptionally thin-skinned.

Yes. Why can't those over-privileged, money-grubbing, materialistic Jew-bitches take a joke?

By: kbanas

kbanas — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:43:36 -0800

Yeah, we definitely had these people at the University of Michigan. They were just the "East-coasters" - I guess I sort of knew that a disproportionate amount of them were Jewish (when compared to the population at large) because they often wore "Pro-Israel" buttons and shirts and things. I dunno. Is that a bad thing? They lived in expensive off-campus apartments, and drove large expensive cars with New Jersey or New York plates, they wore Spandex tights with Uggs, and seemed to have a penchant for designer handbags, but why is that a bad thing? We should all be so lucky. I drove a Dodge Neon and ate noodles out of a can and had a penchant for LAN parties... different strokes for different folks.

By: ericb

ericb — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:44:06 -0800

Coasties vs. Flyovers. Who wins?

By: nestor_makhno

nestor_makhno — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:50:35 -0800

We just call them freshmen.

By: defenestration

defenestration — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:54:59 -0800

Is this another thread where people trash talk Jersey? I'm starting to feel like I was born in Texas.

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:56:29 -0800

i went to college with football players who were convinced that jews still worshiped the golden calf and were not reluctant to tell them so some midwesterners are pretty damn nasty in their beliefs

By: rainperimeter

rainperimeter — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:57:44 -0800

this didn't seem anti-semitic to me. i suppose that's all relative. as i watched and waited for something really offensive, and in my mind it didn't come, i thought, "oh fucking waaaah"

By: ericb

ericb — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 21:10:30 -0800

Is this another thread where people trash talk Jersey? Next up: "Jersey Shore." MTV Pressured To Cancel "Jersey Shore" By NJ Lawmakers.

By: fuq

fuq — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 21:11:16 -0800

What's wrong with wearing spandex instead of pants?!

By: griphus

griphus — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 21:12:00 -0800

Did that article quoted in the controversy link really need to abbreviate "Jewish American Princess" with JAP? I'm a Jewish New Yorker, I have always heard it pronounced as "jap" and only "Jewish American Princess" when it had to be explained to someone. This is also the first time I've heard it used outside of the Jewish community, for what it's worth.

By: HTuttle

HTuttle — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 21:19:56 -0800

Coastie Please!

By: Solon and Thanks

Solon and Thanks — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 21:22:59 -0800

some midwesterners are pretty damn nasty in their beliefs As a midwestern myself (who was raised half on one coast, half on the other) this sentiment really ticks me off. Some everyone are pretty damn nasty in their beliefs.

By: Electrius

Electrius — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 21:29:06 -0800

There are almost no students at the University of Maryland who aren't like this. I guess that makes us the coastie mothership.

By: prefpara

prefpara — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 21:29:10 -0800

When I arrived at my east-coast college (fresh out of California) and heard people saying "jap this" and "jap that" I was so deeply horrified. I didn't figure it out for like a month. I spent the whole month just aghast at the horrible racism so openly displayed against poor, innocent Japanese people.

By: Electrius

Electrius — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 21:37:13 -0800

Oh, and also, why don't they talk about the male version of these people at all? The male "coastie," if anything, is far more obnoxious, but I guess it's easier to identify the females because of their distinctive... ideas about clothing.

By: oinopaponton

oinopaponton — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 21:43:59 -0800

This is also the first time I've heard it used outside of the Jewish community, for what it's worth. Really? I'm not Jewish. My parents raised me to treat the name "jap" like "nigger" or "kike" (that is, to never ever ever say it), but by the time I hit high school I knew so many Jewish girls who tossed that name around proudly (even around us goyim!) that it carried about the same weight as "WASP." I still can't tell if I'm supposed to be offended by it or not. My gay friends are cool with straight people using the word "queer." Is that what it's like? Or is it like the N-word, where you can only say it if you're a member of that minority?

By: item

item — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 21:48:26 -0800

Is this another thread where people trash talk Jersey? I'm starting to feel like I was born in Texas. I will kill you by stabbing your throat. Wait. Did you insult Texans??

By: item

item — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 21:49:38 -0800

(note: no killing will actually go down, and if it does, I swear up & down I had nothing to do with it)

By: MikeMc

MikeMc — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 21:51:11 -0800

some midwesterners are pretty damn nasty in their beliefs So uh, what part of the midwest are you from?

By: artof.mulata

artof.mulata — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 21:55:27 -0800

filtered: stuff white people trip out about.

By: 445supermag

445supermag — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 22:08:10 -0800

A guy (from North Dakota) I was in grad school with went to Brookhaven National Lab (Long Island) to run some samples. He told me about going to some club where he ran into a girl who identified herself as a jap. He of course had no clue what she was talking about, so I explained the only way I knew how: telling him every joke about japs that I knew (i.e. how do you know when a jap has an orgasm? She drops her nail file).

By: kenko

kenko — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 22:09:39 -0800

I guess I might feel differently if I were Jewish,
Ya think? I'm Jewish and I don't feel differently.

By: damehex

damehex — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 22:11:19 -0800

The song is not any good. Also, if you have opinions about how sensitive everyone else ought to be about discrimination, real or perceived, you'll do well to keep those opinions to yourself. Because that's one of those opinions that probably reveals you to be a jackass.

By: Hammond Rye

Hammond Rye — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 22:32:34 -0800

you think this is bad, you should have seen how the bald-headed ho community reacted to Willie D's "Bald-Headed Hoes"

By: defenestration

defenestration — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 22:33:19 -0800

Item: "Is this another thread where people trash talk Jersey? I'm starting to feel like I was born in Texas. I will kill you by stabbing your throat. Wait. Did you insult Texans??" That was the joke, given that people always trash talk Texas, too. If anything, we just bonded.

By: rainperimeter

rainperimeter — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 22:34:06 -0800

tongue in cheek midwesterners.

By: autoclavicle

autoclavicle — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 22:42:34 -0800

""I guess I might feel differently if I were Jewish" It's what we call an ethnic slur. Your response reads like someone claiming to "have a lot of black friends" after they say something racist, or saying that it's okay if they use the n-word because the black guys on the bus do! Knowing some black people, or in this case Jewish people, who have used an ethnic slur against other group members, does in no way substitute for the obvious fact that you are a person of privilege (someone who is not part of that minority) who should not use it.

By: benzenedream

benzenedream — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 22:43:45 -0800

That song blows. Here in SF we call them Marina Girls, but for some strange reason the wikipedia article got deleted. Not sure why the Coastie entry is still around.

By: small_ruminant

small_ruminant — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 22:44:08 -0800

Wait- so this isn't a post about the Coast Guard?

By: Madamina

Madamina — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 22:45:30 -0800

As an employee of the University of Wisconsin, I'm mainly offended at how bad it is. They kind of blew their chance to actually be funny or do something interesting with it. I guess these losers have to do SOMETHING now that "Fuck you!"/Eat shit!" is out of season.

By: Dasein

Dasein — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 22:53:09 -0800

autoclavicle, I would strongly disagree that "JAP" is an ethnic slur; if it were, I would agree that having heard people who are part of the group use it (in a manner intended to appropriate it and thereby undermine its power to cause hurt, or whatever) would not entitle me to use it. But when I was in high school (lo these many years ago) I had a lot of non-Jewish friends who used "JAP" just to refer to a way of dressing and acting, sort like "Valley Girl," and no one ever intended it in any way as an ethnic slur. I don't think that the fact that a term reference ethnicity, or sexuality, or whatever, makes it automatically barred to those not part of that group. "Queer" upthread might be another example of that, and I would contrast "JAP" and "queer" with terms like "kike" and "faggot," which if used in the context of this video would be clearly inappropriate, regardless of any professed ironic intent.

By: rosswald

rosswald — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 23:09:34 -0800

But when I was in high school... no one ever intended it in any way as an ethnic slur lol

By: autoclavicle

autoclavicle — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 23:12:03 -0800

Dasein, you can try to justify how you/your friends use it however you please yet the fact remains that it is an ethnic slur just like "kike."

By: autoclavicle

autoclavicle — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 23:18:21 -0800

LOL. Dasein's posted about the "Jewish/Israel lobby" in the past, and seems to think it's impossible to criticize Israel/Israeli policies without being called antisemitic. Nevermind. It all makes sense now.

By: rosswald

rosswald — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 23:28:45 -0800

I don't care to label dasein or his comment. The "a" word just seems to incite a race to the bottom in these these threads... I will say that dasein's comment is pretty stupid. Whatever, one day these dudes are gonna order a pastrami sandwich and get gefilte fish instead.

By: iamkimiam

iamkimiam — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 00:11:34 -0800

Uh, people, what the fuck?! Where I come from, this is an ethnic slur. I've had people call me a jap, and it sucks. Sucks in the same way that being called a kike sucks. Sucks in the same way that this offensive video and the way everybody in this thread is being dismissive sucks. I don't care if it doesn't bother you, or you heard it as a term of endearment, or whatever. I know I'm not alone here when I say it's offensive. But even if I were alone on this, common sense should prevail... Doesn't anybody find it uh, odd*, that the label "Jewish" is being used here, and in this way? Do you not see how that could be construed as stereotyping? Do you find nothing wrong with the meanings of the term "Jewish" juxtaposed with terms "American" and "Princess"? Even if you don't buy into the ethnic slur of jap, do you not see how 'Jewish American Princess' could be interpreted as something derogatory towards an entire group of people? Or how about the idea of making a video that singles out, identifies, and makes fun of Jewish women, suggesting that they're unoriginal, consumerist, rich fashion whores? And the dismissive/offensive comments here? Ugh. Flagged and flagged and flagged. *And by 'odd' I mean fucking offensive.

By: mullacc

mullacc — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 00:23:29 -0800

Tights R pants 4 evah.

By: PenDevil

PenDevil — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 00:25:10 -0800

I prefer the term the South African Jewish community came up for materialistic, overly made up young girls: the "Kugel". At least then when you talk about it in public people don't think you're badmouthing the Japanese rather you're just chatting about a tasty potato bake.

By: PenDevil

PenDevil — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 00:28:55 -0800

The male equivalent being the "Bagel".

By: autoclavicle

autoclavicle — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 00:39:48 -0800

I like how apparently nobody can be called prejudiced unless there's documented evidence that they've dragged a black man behind their car. Guess what? "JAP" is a noted sexist ethnic slur, and nobody cares whether you, a non-Jewish male, personally disagree with that.

By: Afroblanco

Afroblanco — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 02:36:17 -0800

Too incompetent to actually be offensive. I lived in NYC -- the "Coastie's" home environment --for like 6 years, and they didn't even do a good job portraying the stereotype. And as someone who grew up in the Midwest, I cringe at how they are playing into the "ignorant Midwesterner" stereotype. I mean, fuckdamnit, if they'd ever even been to NYC, they'd know that all the girls there wear those ugly fucking sunglasses and spend pants-shittingly insane amounts of money on their handbags. It's like, hello, Earth to Wisconsin, it's not a Jewish thing, even if the only New Yorkers you've ever met happened to be Jewish. It's like when people hear Kyle's mother on South Park and refer to her speaking style as a "Jewish accent." (facepalm)

By: Mojojojo

Mojojojo — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 03:12:31 -0800

It's like when people hear Kyle's mother on South Park and refer to her speaking style as a "Jewish accent." Gerald and Sheila Broflovski are Jewish. Just sayin...

By: Afroblanco

Afroblanco — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 03:19:32 -0800

Did you read my whole comment, or just the last sentence?

By: HuronBob

HuronBob — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 04:11:31 -0800

there once was a girl from the coast whose boots were more ugly than most she thought she was cool but looked like a fool this post really should have been toast i got nothin'...

By: Rhomboid

Rhomboid — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 05:03:57 -0800

A wikipedia screenshot featured unironically in a rap video? Well now I've seen everything.

By: fourcheesemac

fourcheesemac — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 05:20:36 -0800

Like all such terms, there's an acceptable in-group use of "JAP" and a less-acceptable use of the term as an insult. But having grown up on Long Island, the term had no more slur value than other terms of *class* (and gender) identification and derision (not racial). Working-class Jews called their richer neighbors "jappy" all the time. Italian American women (who are honorary Jews on Long Island anyway) were called "jappy." I actually think it's the "princess" part that's meant to offend, anyway -- it's a gendered slur more than an ethnic one. I dated a few self-described japs in my day. Exhausting. Oh, and as a halfie (one side immigrant Jewish, the other side Midwestern WASP) I can't get my knickers too twisted about this term. One thing about us secular Americans of Jewish ethnic heritage -- you'll find most of us can take a little stereotyping ethnic humor without screaming about the second coming of the holocaust. Who do you think writes all that shit for late night TV?

By: craichead

craichead — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 05:44:07 -0800

Oh, and also, why don't they talk about the male version of these people at all? The male "coastie," if anything, is far more obnoxious, but I guess it's easier to identify the females because of their distinctive... ideas about clothing.

Yeah, no. I don't think that's it. I think that ethnic and class insults can be more effective when they're sweetened with misogyny.

By: Maias

Maias — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 07:26:26 -0800

I don't think it's up to men-- Jewish, half-Jewish or not-- to tell people whether or not "Jap" is offensive.

By: ishotjr

ishotjr — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 07:27:46 -0800

We have these in Texas and probably 95% of them are super Christian, so yeah.

By: A189Nut

A189Nut — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 07:38:29 -0800

From a non-American perspective, this all seems very... local

By: cccorlew

cccorlew — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 08:08:47 -0800

What is this this "Wisconsin?" Is it that thing we fly over?

By: d. z. wang

d. z. wang — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 08:15:01 -0800

iamkimiam: "Or how about the idea of making a video that singles out, identifies, and makes fun of Jewish women, suggesting that they're unoriginal, consumerist, rich fashion whores?" To claim all Jewish women are "unoriginal, consumerist, rich fashion whores" would be racist. I don't think that's what the authors meant to do, though. The chorus asks, "What's a Coastie?" and then lists these traits (lyrics from getalyric.com): Black tights all day Starbucks big shades! Always blowin' daddy's money My east coast jewish honey White tee v-neck She always think that she the best North face with the uggs It sounds like the "east coast jewish [sic]" is another affectation, like the sunglasses and the Uggs. The actual Coastie stereotype may well be extremely anti-Semitic, but being not from Wisconsin I can only proceed from the lyrics of this song. Those lyrics suggest that the authors hate Jews about as much as they hate tights and puffy jackets: not at all, except as an affectation of an apparently obnoxious group.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 08:15:26 -0800

As an Astro Zombie, I think this whole discussion is oddly Earth-based.

By: amro

amro — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 08:33:41 -0800

I'm Jewish and I grew up (and live again) in New Jersey. Why didn't someone ever give my parents the memo that we were supposed to be rich? Christ, if I have to live with the stereotype, I wish I at least got the fancy handbag and shoes to go along with it.

By: the cuban

the cuban — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:12:08 -0800

From a non-American perspective, this all seems very... local Uh huh, Metafilter is a local site for local people.

By: Mid

Mid — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:31:21 -0800

UW has a long history of welcoming Jewish students from the east coast, dating back to the "quota" days when east coast schools were turning Jews away. The book I linked, They Marched Into Sunlight, is a really neat account of UW and the student anti-war protests there in 1967. (Some people claim that these were the first violent student protests against the war.) At the time, some locals blamed the protests on "outsiders," such as the east coast Jewish students. So this whole cheesehead/coastie thing has been around a long long time.

By: kylej

kylej — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:42:56 -0800

Huh. I currently go to a north shore high school with a lot of jews who would seem to fit that stereotype and I've never heard that term before.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:52:56 -0800

And do you know any blacks who fit racist stereotypes? There are probably a few slurs I could introduce you too.

By: Darth Fedor

Darth Fedor — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:00:38 -0800

Do I know any blacks? No way. But have you ever seen the Northern Whites? The Northern Whites are amazing. I am coo-coo for all Whites, but the Northern Whites take the cake. You know. What're they called... The Auwowa Boweawis?

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:06:49 -0800

Sometimes I think we should be able to flag comments as "what."

By: escabeche

escabeche — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:12:05 -0800

Those lyrics suggest that the authors hate Jews about as much as they hate tights and puffy jackets: not at all, except as an affectation of an apparently obnoxious group. Fair enough. Kids here constantly say things like "I hate tights worn as pants, they're so ugly and obnoxious!" I agree that the sense of the word "hate" here is somewhat mild. Nonetheless: do you really not feel queasy when you hear a kid saying "I hate Jewish women, they're so ugly and obnoxious!" in the same tone of voice? Also, being Jewish is not an affectation.

By: palliser

palliser — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:43:22 -0800

Those lyrics suggest that the authors hate Jews about as much as they hate tights and puffy jackets: not at all, except as an affectation of an apparently obnoxious group. How is their Jewishness related to their tragic fashion choices? I don't get what's so hard about this. It's okay to disapprove of other people because of their obnoxious behavior or affectations; it's not okay to drag their race, ethnicity, or gender into it. To me personally, though, the stereotype itself is not so vicious, as these things go. Wouldn't put "JAP" in a pile with "kike." More "wow, you're a little dumb" than "wow, you're a little hateful."

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:59:20 -0800

I actually have a bigger problem with the phrase JAP than Kike, which I've never in my life actually heard, because JAP is more insidious, in that people think it is a fair and accurate phrase to use to describe Jewish women, even though it really functions to set aside a minority group for scorn.

By: d. z. wang

d. z. wang — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:05:06 -0800

escabeche: "Nonetheless: do you really not feel queasy when you hear a kid saying "I hate Jewish women, they're so ugly and obnoxious!" in the same tone of voice?" Of course, and my point is exactly that I don't think this song is saying that. I think this song is saying, "I hate these women, who are surgically attached to their fancy purses and Starbucks cups and their oh-so-superior east coast, Jewish identity." escabeche: "Also, being Jewish is not an affectation." I can't comment specifically about "Jewish", but "east coast" can definitely be an affectation. If I were to walk about Wisconsin constantly complaining about how "you just can't get bagels (pizza, high-rolling investment bankers, etc.) like in The City", especially if I were actually from Long Island or New Jersey, my New York origin would be an affectation. Then you could very reasonably object to "that obnoxious New Yorker" without having any specific objection to New York. You're objecting to how obnoxiously I am from New York and the city only enters your complaint as a part of my behavior. That's how I think this song is objecting to Jewish women:

By: craichead

craichead — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:18:48 -0800

Of course, and my point is exactly that I don't think this song is saying that. I think this song is saying, "I hate these women, who are surgically attached to their fancy purses and Starbucks cups and their oh-so-superior east coast, Jewish identity."

Golly. So how exactly do these horrible Jewish women express their "oh-so-superior east coast, Jewish identity"?

By: youcancallmeal

youcancallmeal — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:22:29 -0800

Blergh. As someone who could pretty easily be classified as a JAP (and as a dork and as a hippie and I'm sure many other things), this is just silly. I have a cousin who actually goes to UW and is from New York-area New Jersey and if he were a she would be the poster child for this stereotype and I just can't get worked up enough to find it offensive.

By: defenestration

defenestration — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:23:36 -0800

There's a whole lot of rationalizing going on in this thread.

By: Solon and Thanks

Solon and Thanks — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 12:06:26 -0800

How is their Jewishness related to their tragic fashion choices? I don't get what's so hard about this. It's okay to disapprove of other people because of their obnoxious behavior or affectations; it's not okay to drag their race, ethnicity, or gender into it. Yeah... this is what I'm thinking. I think those girls who walk around campus in their uniforms of tights, no pants, uggs, and a northface in every kind of weather are funny - they almost mock themselves, as they complain about how cold/hot/whatever they are. But oh my gosh yikes, I would not want to toss around words like "JAP" or bring religious stereotypes into it. And this is in Ohio, where it's mostly small-town Protestant girls doing it.

By: L0

L0 — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 12:30:37 -0800

It would be nice to know how to go about hating the choices of a group of people without being seen as hating whatever ethnicities are disproportionately represented in that group. I like to hate things, but I certainly don't think anyone should be prejudged on the basis of their birth.

By: nowoutside

nowoutside — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:33:46 -0800

Heh, I went to Ohio State (a Big Ten school like Wisconsin) and this whole thing is completely bizarre to me. The 'Coasties' were always really popular. Many had fake IDs and stories about big city clubs, they knew how to use public transportation without anxiety. They were shocked when they found out you never had Thai food or sushi. The east coasters just seemed less sheltered compared to us locals and were really in demand socially. I never noticed a strong bias towards any given ethnicity/religion though. The east coasters did seem more wealthy, but they didn't get in-state tuition so it is a strong selection factor. The one thing we can all agree on is that is one horribly executed rap parody. Utter crap, they have multiple reasons to be ashamed.

By: rainperimeter

rainperimeter — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 14:16:29 -0800

in portland these girls (and in this case their d-bag boyfriends) would be called "bridge and tunnelers". i'm just going on the fashion aspect of things (when making split-second superficial judgements i don't have time to guess what religion you belong to.) the name refers to people who go downtown on the weekends for drunken clubbin' and then embarrassing fights (whether they are dudes fist fighting or bf/gf spats) on the way back to their suv, or come over to the malls for some awesome sales tax free shopping (omg i luv lloyd center!), whether by crossing a bridge from vancouver, wa., or going through the tunnel from beaverton/west side.

By: Mid

Mid — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 15:00:33 -0800

You realize, of course, that "bridge and tunnel" originated in NYC, right?

By: rainperimeter

rainperimeter — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 15:21:55 -0800

meh, whatever. i made no claims of origin of the phrase. and likely it's been put into use out here by the massive amounts of coasties who have moved here (kidding of course. but seriously, there are loads of east coasters here.) i know NYC is the center of the universe, so i hope it's cool if that term is used out west.

By: thinkpiece

thinkpiece — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 15:22:47 -0800

Sorry, but "bridge and tunnel" simply does not work properly outside of Manhattan, and certainly not in context of the labelling people who "come over to the malls," thusly,I mean, really, yeow.

By: Mid

Mid — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 15:47:29 -0800

Well, in fairness, the wikipedia entry I linked suggests that B&T has been picked up as an expression in multiple cities (many of which have a bridge and/or tunnel). The only reason I semi-snarked was because rainperimeter sorta suggested it was Portland thing.

By: rainperimeter

rainperimeter — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 15:55:48 -0800

"i know NYC is the center of the universe..." "Sorry, but "bridge and tunnel" simply does not work properly outside of Manhattan..." ha. of course we shouldn't use that term. you're right. i'm sorry.

By: adamdschneider

adamdschneider — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:05:16 -0800

Really the most deplorable thing about all this is the way it highlights the continual degeneration of our language vis-a-vis making everything a diminutive by adding -ie(s) to it. "Coasties," indeed.

By: fourcheesemac

fourcheesemac — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:55:46 -0800

The Onion gives us another Madison stereotype. (Jerkoff American Potheads.)

By: Belle O'Cosity

Belle O'Cosity — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 18:20:52 -0800

I graduated from UW Madison in 1995. We had that same type then. I was super poor and kind of pissed off about it. These were the kids that lived in the "Towers" and had their own cars even though in Madison there are not a lot of places to park cars. Word on the street was the reason these rich east coast kids were there was because it was a big school with a good rep, far enough away that the rents that they wouldn't be coming to check in very often, and sort of a party school. We called them coasties then too. The uniform was different, the attitude was the same. I kind of hated those girls. So, I don't know, I kind of understand, I would never call them out like that, but I saw that tribe then for sure. (Please don't read tribe as jewish as in the big bad other, I just mean it as east coast subculture that I did not know about because I was sheltered, different from my tribe kind of meaning). Nothing has changed. Also, I hate having to explain my prejudices from a time when I was still learning about new people and cultures. Do you know what I mean?

By: Demogorgon

Demogorgon — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 18:49:39 -0800

>What is this this "Wisconsin?" Is it that thing we fly over? Oh, is this the part where it's okay for everyone in LA and New York to talk shit about all mid-westerners because, hey, some college kids started it? Please, demonstrate to us how vogue and metropolitan you are by characterizing all mid-westerners as backwards hicks in a desolate dead space you've never heard about. Look folks, on behalf of the entire mid-west I apologize for these idiotic college students and their retarded prank. If anyone's interested, come to Minnesota some time and I'll show you why we're awesome. It's definitely not because of this.

By: mreleganza

mreleganza — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 19:53:47 -0800

Ugg boots and spending Daddy's money is not a Jewish thing, it's a rich thing. The authors put Judaism in the mix, so yeah, I don't think it's cool.

By: Dasein

Dasein — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 20:05:28 -0800

LOL. Dasein's posted about the "Jewish/Israel lobby" in the past, and seems to think it's impossible to criticize Israel/Israeli policies without being called antisemitic. Normally I wouldn't pop back in a thread this long after a comment, but this is over the line. LISTEN ASSHOLE: Posting a link does not constitute endorsing its content. I'll say that again: POSTING A LINK TO AN ARTICLE DOES NOT MEAN YOU AGREE WITH WHAT'S BEING SAID. The post in question was to an article that generated a huge amount of public and academic response and was widely discussed for months. It was worthy of an FPP, and I saw it before anyone had posted about it. The post in question tried to set the article in its academic context. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I THINK ABOUT THE TOPIC IN QUESTION BECAUSE I HAVEN'T TOLD YOU. Now go jump to conclusions somewhere else. Preferably off a bridge.

By: kathrineg

kathrineg — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 20:45:51 -0800

Why do people even care if people wear ugly clothes I mean it seems like there's a lot of being pissed that people wear Uggs and tights I don't get it. OH NO TIGHTS? I can't hate on tights. They're comfy.

By: Solon and Thanks

Solon and Thanks — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:04:03 -0800

kathrineg, have you noticed the (newish) trend of people wearing tights with no pants? And basically leaving nothing to the imagination? I normally don't care what people wear, but I think it's really funny. Especially when you live in Ohio and it's 40 degrees out.

By: kathrineg

kathrineg — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:16:20 -0800

Hmm. People in Ohio drive everywhere anyway, right? They're just as warm as jeans.

By: spitefulcrow

spitefulcrow — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:33:02 -0800

Not every community welcomes diversity. Welcome to reality rather than some feel-good fantasy mockery thereof. Sorry, did I miss the memo where it became passé to call attention to prejudice in an effort to eradicate it? Really, I'm just not sure where you were going with this comment. "Not every community welcomes diversity" — okay, sure. This is true. Maybe we should do something about it. "Welcome to reality", though? So you're just accepting things the way they are and telling the rest of us to get used to it? I'm appalled to share a website with someone bearing an attitude like that.

By: Solon and Thanks

Solon and Thanks — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:36:52 -0800

People in Ohio drive everywhere anyway, right? ... No?

By: Jade5454

Jade5454 — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:46:23 -0800

I graduated from the UW in 1992, evidently before the word "Coastie" was used. The east coast girls were the same back then - flaunting wealth, wearing expensive clothing, carrying expensive handbags. I knew at least some of them were Jewish, but the religion thing was never the issue. The University of Wisconsin is huge into diversity. People come from all over the globe. I do think the true issue is that we Wisconsonites (in general) do not put a priority in flaunting wealth (ahem, except the Milwaukee girls, IMHO). The majority of us were dirt poor trying to pay too much rent for a crappy apartment and actually feed ourselves on occasion. But I did it because the UW is an excellent school and I wanted an excellent education. The UW is pretty selective about their students, so let's please not infer we are a bunch of drunken idiots. Yes, we drank. We worked hard and played hard. I was making minimum wage working 30 hours per week and going to school full time. It was appalling to me to see a bunch of women expensively dressed and coiffed, mainly because to me it seemed they hadn't earned it by working for it. Between the ages of 18-22, all I could do is be jealous that they didn't have to drag themselves to work for 6:00 am and hate them because it looked like they had it so easy. The song wouldn't be nearly as offensive if the creators took out the Jewish references.

By: immlass

immlass — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:58:34 -0800

The guys who did this are at the flagship campus in Madison? The one that I keep hearing from Wisconsinites of my acquaintance is so perfectly liberal and everything? The one that they look down on bigoted old Texas from? I feel simultaneously betrayed and smug.

By: Forktine

Forktine — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 06:02:53 -0800

UW has a long history of welcoming Jewish students from the east coast, dating back to the "quota" days when east coast schools were turning Jews away. The book I linked, They Marched Into Sunlight, is a really neat account of UW and the student anti-war protests there in 1967. It's worth remembering that the welcome for Jewish students was always provisional and tentative. Once big numbers started arriving, there was a lot of concern expressed, including serious proposals for instituting quotas. A lot of the language was coded -- "outsiders," "agitators," "east coast" -- but everyone knew what was meant.

By: rmd1023

rmd1023 — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 06:34:57 -0800

2.5% jewish? huh. i clearly have a peculiar and unsupported-by-demographics set of assumptions about wisconsin, then, as about 2/3 of the folks i know who grew up there are jewish. so i figured it was some kind of jewish enclave in the middle of the country. sampling bias being all biased, i guess.

By: diogenes

diogenes — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 06:56:23 -0800

At Colby College in Maine we referred to wealthy out-of-staters from the coasts as "everybody."

By: nomad

nomad — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 08:13:28 -0800

Why are we talking about this terrible iMovie slideshow?

By: palliser

palliser — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:03:01 -0800

It would be nice to know how to go about hating the choices of a group of people without being seen as hating whatever ethnicities are disproportionately represented in that group. Uhhh ... don't use the name of the ethnicity(ies) when insulting them? Again, not sure what's hard about understanding the offensiveness to Jews when you use the word "Jewish" in your insult. If this kind of restriction cuts so deeply into your vocabulary that you're at a loss for how to express yourself without terms like this, then what we have here is a good occasion for some self-reflection. I actually have a bigger problem with the phrase JAP than Kike, which I've never in my life actually heard My neighborhood is known to some locals as "Kike's Peak." So I have. But you know, I was reading through the MeTa thread on the topic, and I think I've come around to your point of view that "JAP" overlaps too strongly with typical anti-semitic stereotypes to be blown off as mere sophomorism.

By: sararah

sararah — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:53:39 -0800

Here in Iowa, when I see the girls on campus wearing leggings and stupid boots and tiny coats and no hats or mittens, and it is -30 °F with the windchill, well, I just call them idiots.

By: cobra_high_tigers

cobra_high_tigers — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:19:38 -0800

Solon and Thanks: have you noticed the (newish) trend of people wearing tights with no pants? And basically leaving nothing to the imagination? I've certainly noticed this around campus in Berkeley, CA, and never once thought that a college male would have a problem with it

By: kathrineg

kathrineg — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:34:55 -0800

People in Ohio walk around so much in cold weather that you particularly care about what they wear...why, because they are wearing unsafe clothing? If you really are worried that they'll get frostbite of the knee, why don't you gently tell them that they might want to wear pants, lest they seriously injure themselves? When I'm in Minnesota, people gently correct me when I'm dressed inappropriately (well maybe it's the Minnesota version of "WTF, idiot", but it comes out nice because, well, Minnesota) Oh, it's just about mocking people because they are in a different group than you are, with different norms of dress? Oh, okay. Women are encouraged to wear impractical clothing because it's fashionable. Then you mock them for it, because it's not the impractical clothing that YOU want them to wear. Ever wear high heels? Because those are so, so practical. This kind of petty norm enforcement is one of the reasons why I moved to New York from the (sorta kinda) Midwest. People are still assholes here but there are alternatives. Many varieties of asshole to choose from. Oh, and no one thinks that going to Starbucks means I'm flaunting something (well, I am flaunting my desire for coffee and a place to pee).

By: Blasdelb

Blasdelb — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:36:29 -0800

I have always found the undercurrents to debates like this one to be far more offensive than the already awful vocabulary American antisemitism is tremendously regional and thus revealing to the nature of most of our prejudices. Where in some communities, Jewish identity is simply unremarkable in the way that maleness is often seen as genderless and whiteness is seen as without ethnicity. In the way that to be called an "Irish" was once a slur but is now no longer politically, economically or socially meaningful. Here terms like JAP are genuinely indistinguishable from the WASP variety of princess except in unremarkable details. However as soon as the speaker gives that important political, economic or social weight to Jewish identity, as opposed to the identity of an unimportantly different variety of American Princess, the term instantly becomes indistinguishable from the worst kind of slurs. What is offensive is not the word but the undercurrents of its use which seem unclear in the plainly tone deaf video but plain in the two diametrically opposed reactions.

By: kathrineg

kathrineg — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:38:25 -0800

It would be nice to know how to go about hating the choices of a group of people without being seen as hating whatever ethnicities are disproportionately represented in that group. So far these super hated choices that are sooo important to hate that we have to figure out a special way to hate them seem to include: 1. Wearing clothes you don't like 2. Carrying accessories that you don't like 3. Making grooming choices that you don't like 4. Having wealthy parents and being from the coast (well, those aren't really choices, but whatevs) 5. Going to college where you can see them

By: L0

L0 — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 12:08:13 -0800

Nothing is too trivial to hate. Try to keep an open mind.

By: rainperimeter

rainperimeter — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 12:18:37 -0800

since these two kids are not funny in the least, from madison, and riding on a weak little wave of fame, it seems that they have all the criteria to get a nationally syndicated radio show (that makes me cringe and race to turn off the stereo the second it starts.)

By: Solon and Thanks

Solon and Thanks — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 12:28:52 -0800

I've certainly noticed this around campus in Berkeley, CA, and never once thought that a college male would have a problem with it Women are encouraged to wear impractical clothing because it's fashionable. Then you mock them for it, because it's not the impractical clothing that YOU want them to wear. Ever wear high heels? Because those are so, so practical. I'm a woman, as it says in my profile.

By: Solon and Thanks

Solon and Thanks — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 12:33:57 -0800

People in Ohio walk around so much in cold weather that you particularly care about what they wear...why, because they are wearing unsafe clothing? I also don't get why you're being so hostile. Yes, it's because they're wearing improper clothing for the elements and then often complain about the cold. I find that kind of amusing.

By: bingo

bingo — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 12:34:58 -0800

I went to the University of Kansas, where there were a lot of Chicago JAPs. That video perfectly pegged the speech inflections, especially with the phrases "I have a question" and "I'm from Chicago."

By: Solon and Thanks

Solon and Thanks — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 12:43:23 -0800

nevermind, memailed.

By: kathrineg

kathrineg — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 12:44:09 -0800

I know. It still applies. That is why I asked if you wear high heels...which are also impractical. Criticizing other women's clothing choices is not useful, and justifying the criticism by saying the clothes are impractical is hypocritical.

By: Solon and Thanks

Solon and Thanks — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 12:50:53 -0800

Eh, okay. If I wear high heels and then complain that my feet hurt, I wouldn't be offended or surprised if someone was like "... then don't wear high heels." I'm an adult with free agency, I can choose what I wear. Now if someone (like a dress code) were forcing me to wear them, then I'd get angry.

By: kathrineg

kathrineg — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 13:40:49 -0800

Solon and Thanks, I was conflating what you said with what other people said. Apologies for that. Still, hatred of these women's distinctive clothing is being used as partial justification for the denigration of a minority ethnic group. Coming into a discussion where people are talking about that and saying something like "no, really, it's a stupid fashion!" is pointless at best.

By: kathrineg

kathrineg — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 14:11:32 -0800

Solon and Thanks: "Eh, okay. If I wear high heels and then complain that my feet hurt, I wouldn't be offended or surprised if someone was like "... then don't wear high heels." I'm an adult with free agency, I can choose what I wear. Now if someone (like a dress code) were forcing me to wear them, then I'd get angry." More relevant would be someone using your footwear choices as one of many justifications for their racist, misogynistic bigotry. That's what's happening here. And it's one of many reasons why we should avoid talking smack about what other women wear.

By: Solon and Thanks

Solon and Thanks — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 14:47:40 -0800

Still, hatred of these women's distinctive clothing is being used as partial justification for the denigration of a minority ethnic group. Coming into a discussion where people are talking about that and saying something like "no, really, it's a stupid fashion!" is pointless at best. Well, I wasn't really saying that -- my second post was specifically saying that even if you don't like someone's clothing, if it's clothing worn by an ethnic group leave well enough alone and bringing ethinc slurs and stereotypes into it is that much worse. Then I participated in a derail about fashion in general, (that where I am is a white Christian thing, as I said) and it ended up looking like I was agreeing with the video-makers, I guess, which was not at all my intention. I should definitely have taken more care to stay on topic, considering what we're talking about.

By: xod

xod — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 15:37:22 -0800

in portland these girls (and in this case their d-bag boyfriends) would be called "bridge and tunnelers". Portland, Oregon has their own "bridge and tunnel" superiority complex. That's adorable.

By: desuetude

desuetude — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 18:26:39 -0800

Sorry, but "bridge and tunnel" simply does not work properly outside of Manhattan And I'd like to thank Manhattan for coming up with it, 'cause it proves very handy here in Philly to describe the Cosmopolitan-drinking girlies careening down Old City streets in inappropriately summery footwear, screeching around their macho boyfriends.

By: ericb

ericb — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 18:51:34 -0800

Bridge (e.g. Tobin Bridge) and Tunnel (e.g. The Big Dig) is alive and well here in Boston. As is, 508, 413, etc.

By: amro

amro — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 18:58:25 -0800

desuetude, it makes no sense in Philly, there's no tunnel (unless I'm forgetting about one?).

By: fontophilic

fontophilic — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 20:04:11 -0800

Also, I hate having to explain my prejudices from a time when I was still learning about new people and cultures. Do you know what I mean? I went to a big land grant university, where rural and urban students are thrown together. I recall IMing my friends back home about my crazy hillbilly roommate, when she asked me "Whats the name of that, you know, kinda foreign lookin' girl down the hall?" The "foreign lookin'" girl was clearly born and raised in the US, but of Indian descent. I later figured out that my roommate had honest to goodness, just NEVER interacted with anyone of a different race before, she wasn't racist just ignorant. In the following 4 years she actually ended up dating an Indian guy. So yes, I do know what you mean, racial tolerance can only be learned through experience. Maybe you get that at a very early age, maybe its not till 20, hopefully you'll have an open enough mind to accept it. Unfortunately these guys took their own ignorant views and immortalized them with the internet. Sucks to be them. Bonus irony points for using a musical style that has deep roots in Urban culture. Also, we had our own creative insult for Ugg-big sunglasses-daddy's money rich sorostitutes, "Orange People", so named for their fake tans.

By: Skwirl

Skwirl — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 20:43:48 -0800

I grew up in Portland and I've never heard B&T used that way. Geographically, it doesn't make sense. Everybody crosses a bridge one way or another in Portland. I s'pose my circles just randomly assign a suburb to whoever is annoying us (Gresham < 'couve < Beaverton < Lake Oswego). Such as, "gawd, I can't wait until Rose Festival is over and all these Greshamites go home."

By: desuetude

desuetude — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 21:07:28 -0800

desuetude, it makes no sense in Philly, there's no tunnel (unless I'm forgetting about one?). The origin of the phrase is understood to be NYC; a tunnel (well, PATCO, but that's a stretc) is not needed to physically exist for the phrase to work as convenient shorthand for a certain type of nightlife visitor.

By: rainperimeter

rainperimeter — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 21:44:01 -0800

gresham is the oddball in the suburb equation skwirl, but is the home of one of the largest negative side effects of the rose festival. but if someone says something about "people from across the bridge" it is always without question that they mean the I-5 or I-205 bridges (you know, the ones that are woefully inadequate for clark county commuters), not for example, the Morrison bridge. that would make no sense for sure. and if you're coming from the westside a lot/most of the time that is via 26 (tunnel) or the max (tunnel). factor in the stark political/social contrast of washington and clark county residents to that of portland residents and it's pretty right on. but no, not loads of people say it here, but my friends who work downtown use it to describe the thurs-fri-sat night crowds. even though they're not supposed to since it is the intellectual property of NYC. (i grew up in vancouver btw...)

By: amro

amro — Sun, 27 Dec 2009 06:57:18 -0800

a tunnel (well, PATCO, but that's a stretc) is not needed to physically exist for the phrase to work as convenient shorthand for a certain type of nightlife visitor. If you say so. I think it sounds silly.

By: spitefulcrow

spitefulcrow — Sun, 27 Dec 2009 15:29:46 -0800

I've certainly noticed this around campus in Berkeley, CA, and never once thought that a college male would have a problem with it Some of us are gay, thus unattracted to the women wearing this, and are appalled by the poor fashion choices. (Berkeley student here, too. Cheers.)

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:39:35 -0800

Belatedly, I just remembered that once in my life I was called kike. By some skinheads. Who were trying to be affectionate. They were tickled that I was Irish American and Jewish, and so called me Mike McKike for a little while, until I asked them to stop. The phrase was so alien to me, I had a hard time being offended by it, but sooner or later I can get offended about anything.

By: greatgefilte

greatgefilte — Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:44:30 -0800

By: Durn Bronzefist

Durn Bronzefist — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:54:25 -0800

Also, being Jewish is not an affectation. I must introduce you to my MBA-grad ex-flatmate. Yeah... this is what I'm thinking. I think those girls who walk around campus in their uniforms of tights, no pants, uggs, and a northface in every kind of weather are funny - they almost mock themselves, as they complain about how cold/hot/whatever they are. But oh my gosh yikes, I would not want to toss around words like "JAP" or bring religious stereotypes into it. My poster-ethnicity-scanner is currently on the fritz, so I have no idea how many of you are taking offence on behalf of others -- IRL often a pretty stand-up thing to do but on MeFi usually seemingly little more than taking an opportunity to fly the outrage flag -- but the orange fake-tan criterion reminded me of these girls. If the descriptor as it exists only applies to a certain sub-group of Japanese people, does that make it off limits? Because it appears to be a bizarre, cultural, ethnic sub-group. The fact that a non-Japanese person could adopt the style doesn't really detract from its "usefulness" as a descriptive term.

By: palliser

palliser — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:00:59 -0800

I know nothing further about the "ganguro" descriptor than what I just read in Wikipedia, but isn't it just describing a local fashion trend? If it purported to describe a subgroup of Japanese people who exhibit negative traits that have historically been associated with anti-Japanese prejudice, then yeah, it would probably be offensive to many. If someone made up a term that literally meant "wears Uggs and tights," rather than using Uggs and tights as an indication that the person wearing them is materialistic and entitled, and uses sexuality in service of her essential greed, I wouldn't mind it. Like calling people with fake tans "Orange People," which seems totally inoffensive -- just noticing an oddity of current fashion trends. That seems like part of the point of escabeche's post here, by the way -- that there's a bit of a question whether the term "coastie" just describes people from the East Coast with money and a bit of an attitude toward the Midwest, or whether there's a bit of sub rosa anti-semitism in the term as used.

By: amro

amro — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:05:32 -0800

Durn Bronzefist, there is nothing analagous to the term JAP in the link you provided.

By: Durn Bronzefist

Durn Bronzefist — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 15:10:53 -0800

Sub-group of Japanese who exhibit arguably negative traits -- I would be clearer if I (or anyone) understood the group/look a bit better -- but not connected to any historical association -- is this what this is all about? That is, disregard the particulars of the "JAP" characterization aside from, what? Materialism? This group hardly has a lock on that. Is spandex a historical trait? There seem to be differences of experience and opinion on the use of the term varying by geography. If it is coded racism in some places then I guess this is a useful heads-up, much the way "lynching" was to many of us (U.S. and non-) some time back. "Orange people" probably does just fine in terms of both descriptive value and implied disdain.

By: chinston

chinston — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 15:59:17 -0800

Godammit, greatgefilte, I should have known better, Rule 34 and all that, but before seeing the article you linked, the concept of "frum porn" never would have occurred to me. And now what you have done CAN NEVER BE UNDONE.

By: palliser

palliser — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 16:17:21 -0800

That is, disregard the particulars of the "JAP" characterization aside from, what? Materialism? This group hardly has a lock on that. Is spandex a historical trait? I think you're being a little obtuse. The term "JAP" doesn't describe a particular fashion trend. It was used 15 years ago, when I was in high school, to describe girls who made completely different fashion choices. It has nothing specifically to do with spandex. It is a caricature made up of historically anti-semitic tropes, using as an indicator a familiarity with current fashion trends. As I type this out, I'm still not sure what's debateable about this, and if you haven't yet, it might be useful to check out the MeTa thread, too, for a little more background. Though I'm not sure how one would fit "Make her prove she's not a JAP -- make her swallow" into a theory that it's a "descriptor" of a certain fashion trend, like "ganguro," rather than a slur. Or what amro said.

By: Durn Bronzefist

Durn Bronzefist — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 16:24:14 -0800

Oh hey, if that's the case that works for me. I had no idea that "familiarity with current fashion trends" was the indicator here. By my read of the thread (and no experience with the term), current fashion trends were coinciding with the preferred dress of this group and rendering the term at best inaccurate in scope. And I didn't see the MeTa thread; thanks.

By: telstar

telstar — Fri, 01 Jan 2010 02:29:59 -0800

All the high class hate made me want to despise the video. But I love it! That BOOP boop boop boop boop boop is so cool. Songwriters have good rhythmic instinct and a fine sense of humor. I mean, shit, I wouldn't mind being stereotyped by these guys myself! I noticed my wife was wearing ugg boots, black tights and north face and I told her "You're a coastie!". She demanded clarification and we watched the video and then boogied on New Years Eve. Good times.

By: fairywench

fairywench — Sat, 02 Jan 2010 00:03:18 -0800

I'm Jewish, and I and most of my friends and family (most of whom live in NYC) have always made fun of JAPS. They don't represent all Jews any more than Flava Flav represents all blacks. One thing that I think is important to point out is that it's always been my experience that most non-New Yorkers think that all stereotypical New Yorkers are Jewish. They mistake New York-ishness for Jewishness. And by New York-ishness, I'm really referring to those who live in the boroughs and 'burbs. Fran "The Nanny" Drescher could have just as easily been an Italian girl from Staten Island or Jersey. Or a Puerto Rican. And does anyone remember Marisa Tomei in My Cousin Vinnie? She could pass.... Having said all that - it's been my personal experience that there is a special brand of viciousness against anyone different that seems to dwell in that part of the country. My daughter is suffering from post traumatic stress as a result of being mentally tortured by her coworkers (including management) in Chicago.

By: koeselitz

koeselitz — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:03:15 -0800

defenestration: “Is this another thread where people trash talk Jersey? I'm starting to feel like I was born in Texas.” Heh. Never been to Texas, have you? Most people in Texas probably don't think about Jersey that much. Jersey's just a tiny piece of the relatively small country to the east. In my experience people in Texas will generalize about "the east coast" when they choose to generalize about that area at all. No, you're confusing Texas with New York. New York is where people badmouth Jersey. In their defense, this is at least somewhat understandable, because the most immediate experience most New Yorkers have with New Jersey is with its admittedly wasteland-like northern industrial zone.