Comments on: Roman dodecahedron

Roman dodecahedron

twoleftfeet — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 21:58:56 -0800

The Roman dodecahedron is a mystery. With its beautifully symmetrical twelve pentagonal faces, the Greeks held the dodecahedron with a certain reverance. But the Roman fascination is less clear. Were they used for water pipes? Were they astronomic measuring instrumens? Were they candle stands? It's a mystery.

By: Navelgazer

Navelgazer — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 22:03:56 -0800

So the Romans were into playing Barbarians, eh?

By: empath

empath — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 22:10:30 -0800

For saving throws, obviously

By: ktrey

ktrey — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 22:13:52 -0800

The d12 has always been the red-headed stepchild of the pen and paper platonic solids.

By: Partario

Partario — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 22:18:05 -0800

This is really weird. When I was in sixth grade I had to make a dodecahedron out of paper detailing twelve contributions the Romans made to Western Civ. Coincidence?

By: dreamyshade

dreamyshade — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 22:20:26 -0800

That's wonderful! Now sitting in my head next to this Indian icosahedron box.

By: Uppity Pigeon #2

Uppity Pigeon #2 — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 22:37:31 -0800

Partario, this song began spontaneously playing after I read your comment. I even tried shutting off my computer, but it just got louder. Also, this is neat.

By: sexyrobot

sexyrobot — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 22:38:10 -0800

wwwweird. ~^

By: bwg

bwg — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 22:41:36 -0800

D-Twizzy!

By: evidenceofabsence

evidenceofabsence — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 23:04:15 -0800

What's the Latin word for tchotchke? No, seriously. What is it?

By: shii

shii — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 23:06:56 -0800

What's the Latin word for tchotchke? Curio?

By: EatTheWeak

EatTheWeak — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 23:50:46 -0800

Damn, all the air went out of every joke I had in mind when I realized this wasn't a D20.

By: Splunge

Splunge — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 00:19:13 -0800

Whoa!

By: wcfields

wcfields — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 00:22:47 -0800

Some sort of portable glory hole device

By: Kudos

Kudos — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 00:25:34 -0800

Probably roman Ipods

By: stumcg

stumcg — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 00:31:53 -0800

Jedi Lightsaber Training Ball

By: Phanx

Phanx — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 01:12:57 -0800

Some kind of multiple French knitting dolly?

By: Justinian

Justinian — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 01:16:25 -0800

Anyone else get the feeling that when a bunch of archaeologists decide to label something an "unknown religious artifact" it means essentially the same thing as sticking a post-it note on it with the words "FUCK IF I KNOW".

By: pharm

pharm — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 01:27:28 -0800

Justinian: pace the Atlatl.

By: Phanx

Phanx — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 01:29:01 -0800

Katamari

By: delmoi

delmoi — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 01:35:18 -0800

Yeah, seems to escape some people that it may be that people just thought they were cool. But the candle holder seems to make sense since there was wax in one.

By: palmcorder_yajna

palmcorder_yajna — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 01:54:19 -0800

Size gauges for candles?

By: Mayor Curley

Mayor Curley — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 01:57:21 -0800

from the Wikipedia link : "Most of them are made of bronze but some also seem to be made of stone." My erections "seem to be made out of stone" too, but a scientist could tell if they were or not.

By: Davenhill

Davenhill — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 02:32:44 -0800

Obviously it's one of these things.

By: cupcakeninja

cupcakeninja — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 04:08:59 -0800

Justinian, that's exactly what my prof said in Archaeology 101. I wonder just how long the anti-d12 prejudice has been in existence? Perhaps... Now I see. The hatred of the d12 is linked to the fall of Rome! Not all Romans, however, shared this hatred of wielders of battleaxes prone to induce lamentation in women.

By: Kid Charlemagne

Kid Charlemagne — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 04:55:41 -0800

What's it for? It's for being cool as fuck! That's what it's for.

By: DU

DU — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 05:01:13 -0800

That "determine the sowing date" is completely ridiculous. A dodecahedron is both too complicated AND not complicated enough to do the job. It's not complicated enough, because the angle of the sun on a given day is going to vary by latitude, so you need additional knowledge and/or equipment to set up for that. And it's too complicated, because plenty of other civilizations have been able to figure out when to plant without having to use a dodecahedron by using simpler systems. (For instance, a calendar, which the Romans had. Granted, it slid around a bit, but not by so much that you couldn't use it to predict when the plant seeds.) I like the water pipe (or other tube) standard measuring device idea, but without any data on how standardized the dodecs themselves are it's impossible to say. None of these links even says something as basic as how many different sized holes there are on a given object, let alone across all of them. Do the corner spheres show any wear as though they'd been attached to something? No information. Instead of information we get the "theory" that it's a religious artifact of some kind, which is unfalsifiable because there are no constraints.

By: DU

DU — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 05:04:01 -0800

Saying "calendar" and nothing the dodec has 12 faces actually gives me an idea. Except with no data as to age on these things, it's impossible to see if it lines up with calendar the Romans would have been using during that period.

By: DU

DU — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 05:07:18 -0800

Uh...sorry, I'm not crabby at the poster because this is awesome information I'd never heard of before. I'm crabby at, I guess, the scientists for failing to gather a single iota of information on this puzzle.

By: Civil_Disobedient

Civil_Disobedient — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 05:19:35 -0800

Penis lengthener. Obviously.

By: piratebowling

piratebowling — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 05:24:37 -0800

detailing twelve contributions the Romans made to Western Civ. What did the Romans do for us? Yes, yes, the aqueducts.

By: ZsigE

ZsigE — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 05:29:05 -0800

The wiki link says that several hundred of these things have been found. So has anyone tried sticking them together into a larger structure and seeing if some kind of energy field is created, causing a wormhole to another dimension from whence the Romans came in the first place, spreading joy and laughter and murder and destruction wherever they went? Could happen.

By: Drasher

Drasher — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 05:29:59 -0800

I am guessing that the artifacts were the Roman's way of bragging. It showed everyone what expertise they had in creating mold cavities and casting. After that, it was a cool decoration.

By: GenjiandProust

GenjiandProust — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 05:40:11 -0800

Giant tinkertoy sets were all the rage one Saturnalia. After that, you couldn't give the things away, so the ended up in landfills.

By: IndigoJones

IndigoJones — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 06:13:52 -0800

Cool decoration. Cf obelisks. Religious tie in optional. (Any other examples of ancient abstract art with no obvious utilitarian side?)

By: Phanx

Phanx — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 06:19:19 -0800

Hrönir.

By: gimonca

gimonca — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 06:37:30 -0800

You buy a Greek slave to teach your children geometry, he's gonna need supplies. A copy of Euclid's Elements and a few of these is a good start.

By: francesca too

francesca too — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 06:42:02 -0800

Team Jacks with a live goat instead of a rubber ball?

By: gmm

gmm — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 06:50:13 -0800

Looks like a bronze-age DSL router to me.

By: unSane

unSane — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 06:53:56 -0800

reverence

By: LakesideOrion

LakesideOrion — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 07:20:16 -0800

Weren't there 12 chief roman gods? These probably represent that worldview...

By: geoff.

geoff. — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 07:25:20 -0800

Clearly these were sold at Pier Unums across the Roman Empire as umbrella holders. When the Roman children were putting their parents into retirement homes they were probably as confused as us as to why someone would buy something so ugly.

By: FatherDagon

FatherDagon — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 07:26:16 -0800

Mayhaps the dodecahedrons are inactive - when they shine, they are used to catch Pokéthulhu!

By: Nelson

Nelson — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 07:36:50 -0800

I think it's interesting that the holes are different diameter. That strongly suggests some specific purpose.

By: jefficator

jefficator — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 07:39:59 -0800

This is pretty cool. But the dodecahedrons are oh-so-obviously merely the leftover constituent parts of Barbarians whom the Romans had decimated.

By: Tube

Tube — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 07:45:21 -0800

Laser Lit Dodecahedral Die.

By: fuq

fuq — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 08:03:04 -0800

5 'hedrons?! Too expensive man.

By: Drasher

Drasher — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 08:30:28 -0800

Nelson: "43I think it's interesting that the holes are different diameter. That strongly suggests some specific purpose." Yes! Of course! They used them to measure portions of spaghetti!

By: pracowity

pracowity — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 08:30:49 -0800

I don't mean to suggest anything about Roman soldiers, but exactly how big are the holes in these dodecahedra? Maybe Roman dick-measuring contests were actual dick-measuring contests. Dodecahedron, she's my baby. Dodecahedron, I don't mean maybe...

By: Dr Dracator

Dr Dracator — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 08:39:50 -0800

By: brundlefly

brundlefly — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 09:34:55 -0800

I smell Phantasm prequel...

By: Quietgal

Quietgal — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 09:41:37 -0800

> when a bunch of archaeologists decide to label something an "unknown religious artifact" ... Justinian, that's exactly what it means. My uncle was an archeologist, and he said "child's toy or religious object" was the accepted euphemism for "baffling doodad" or "tchotchke of mystery".

By: DU

DU — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 10:06:27 -0800

"Pier Unums".

By: oddman

oddman — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 10:07:22 -0800

It doesn't have to be just a pipe fitting tool. It could be a tool for measuring diameters in general: chair and table legs, weapon shafts, axles and rods in machines, etc.

By: oddman

oddman — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 10:12:28 -0800

Also, surely it's either Pier Unī or Pier Una depending on the gender of preference.

By: codswallop

codswallop — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 10:28:03 -0800

So the holes on one dXII are of different diameter, but is the set of diameters standardized (for values of standardized appropriate to the ancient, pre-industrial world) across different dodecahedra? That would go a long way in supporting the piping form argument. Also, are the layouts of the holes the same? If so, that sort of care might mean religious rather than work-a-day tool. I'm also curious if the concentric rings around the holes match up to the sizes of other holes. Surely some examples of Roman pipes have survived to check out that angle...?

By: LordSludge

LordSludge — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 10:52:23 -0800

It's a candlestick holder. The different diameter holes are to accommodate different size candles. The little balls on the corners provide a stable base. Clever design, and would still work well today -- I wonder if the patent has expired? This feels like an AskMe -- I'm hoping the OP will mark mine as best answer.

By: mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey

mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 11:02:42 -0800

They're Higgs bosons. Two mysteries solved for the price of one!

By: JackFlash

JackFlash — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 12:17:09 -0800

LordSludge: It's a candlestick holder. The different diameter holes are to accommodate different size candles. The little balls on the corners provide a stable base. Clever design, and would still work well today -- I wonder if the patent has expired? That would also be my guess. Back then candles were hand made by dipping and the diameters were poorly controlled. You just pick a side for the best fit and the knobs provide a stable base. One would expect to more consistently find the artifacts with wax traces, but since candles then were made from tallow rather than paraffin, the wax would be expected to degrade more easily. I wonder if modern spectroscopy methods have been used to detect remnant organic compounds that would reveal tallow.

By: codswallop

codswallop — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 12:37:25 -0800

I guess the fact they weren't mentioned anywhere would point to their being something utterly mundane like candle holders. Pretty clever ones, though.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 13:25:51 -0800

They seem too much to be candle holders; that's a hella lot of work involved in making this device. The "mushrooms" at the vertices look like they'd be good for tying-down leather straps. Could the device be a tinkertoy-like part? Used to erect shelters &c? I'd like to know if the holes are standardized sizes.

By: Ogre Lawless

Ogre Lawless — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 13:49:58 -0800

Oh, Metafilter, how I heart thee: inspiration for my casting class. "What is it?" "Its an unspecified religious object". It'll go doubly well for moldmaking when making N of them then becomes an exercise in where to place strange objects of utter uselessness so that future archeologists might find them and be MYSTEFIED!!

By: Dr Dracator

Dr Dracator — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 13:54:02 -0800

It doesn't have to be just a pipe fitting tool. It could be a tool for measuring diameters in general: chair and table legs, weapon shafts, axles and rods in machines, etc. Thinking about it again, the diameter measuring tool doesn't make much sense. A flat piece of metal with different sized holes would be way easier to make and much more practical to use, like you do for drill bits.

By: Phanx

Phanx — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 14:37:09 -0800

By: Phanx

Phanx — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 14:38:40 -0800

What about testing the sizes of coins, to check whether they'd been clipped?

By: Joe in Australia

Joe in Australia — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 15:20:09 -0800

The gauge idea is stupid, as Dr Dracator said. I don't think the Romans were big on precise measurements; there's no indication that the holes actually are of different sizes; and there's certainly no indication that any variance between the holes is identical between different items. As for the candlestick idea ... please. Anything can be a candlestick. Candles are soft and the wax makes them fit on or into most things. Assuming that these dodecahedra actually exist, my bet is that they were made because they are cool (as others said) and perhaps some were repurposed as toys or candlesticks or decorations, either in temples or elsewhere.

By: Xoebe

Xoebe — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 17:02:53 -0800

The little ball feet on all of them have me intrigued. While providing a level base for some form of support, as you'd need on a candle holder, they aren't necessary for that purpose if the base is flat. A d12 sits nicely on the table just fine without them. So, maybe some should have the ball-feet, and some wouldn't. But they all appear to have them. The ball-feet are fundamental to the purpose of the device. Why? The thought struck me that you would want to raise the device if you wanted it to sit above a liquid. Water? Oil? Candle wax? Perhaps the different diameter holes held different gauges of cordage that served as a wick, and the d12 sat in a shallow bowl or flat dish filled with oil. The wick could lay in the oil and you'd have a little portable lamp.

By: snsranch

snsranch — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 17:54:10 -0800

Coin changing sounds pretty right on to me.

By: Hairy Lobster

Hairy Lobster — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 19:59:10 -0800

Isn't it obvious? EARTH HAS 12 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 12-DAY TIME DODECAHEDRON IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 12 CORNER DAYS, DODECAHEDRON 12 QUAD EARTH - NO 1 DAY GOD. YOU ARE EDUCATED EVIL!

By: L.P. Hatecraft

L.P. Hatecraft — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 21:48:25 -0800

Paperweight.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 22:35:41 -0800

MeFi: overthinking a plate of brass Roman dodecaheron religious candlestick holder coin sorter artifacts with knobs on.

By: DU

DU — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 05:37:29 -0800

I might be wrong, but I don't think the Romans had standard sizes of piping - I believe water pipes were made by hand as required from folded lead sheet - and I think the pipes typically had a big seam down one side that would have prevented insertion into a gauge of this kind even if standard sizing had been important? I think you are right about the seam. Also, I am now remembering that the way they attached pipes was by tapering them slightly and sliding them into each other. So a device like this could be used to measure the taper, if the holes on the opposite sides were different sizes and there was no seam. But what I really wanted to say was this: They had standard size *nozzles*. That's how they measured how much water a running-water-supplied house could get. They didn't measure flow, just cross sectional area. I don't know how the nozzles were constructed, maybe they had seams too. But really, we don't have enough information on the dodecahedrons to make even an edumacated guess.

By: IndigoJones

IndigoJones — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 05:39:44 -0800

Possibly plumbing junction boxes for very very complicated high rises. Which have not survived....

By: oddman

oddman — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:43:52 -0800

Maybe it was made by worshipers of a god of humor or mischief. They aren't simply mysterious religious objects they are mysterious religious obbjects designed to mystify future civilizations!

By: empath

empath — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:59:52 -0800

might they be some kind of 'school project' for people learning how to cast? Kind of the equivalent of an ash-tray in shop class.

By: Goofyy

Goofyy — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:08:16 -0800

I am wondering about something used for tying curtains back, or maybe a hair decoration. The knobs would facilitate either of these applications, making the object less likely to slip out of place.

By: twoleftfeet

twoleftfeet — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 22:40:48 -0800

I like the idea that they were some kind of "final exam" for Roman metallurgists. Making a dodecahedron is hard enough, but getting those little balls to stick to the corners is really tricky. Plus you have to show that you know how to cut holes of different sizes. If you had a couple of these things in your hands you would probably notice little variations: "the dodecahedron of Tibius is nice, but that of Patellus has rounder holes and smoother welding." So you'd have a standardized test for who was better at bronze.

By: DU

DU — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 08:54:24 -0800

I'm sure metalworkers did have some kind of final test, but I doubt they'd waste materials by keeping so many of them around. Unless they were also useful, which brings us back to the problem of what they were used for.

By: twoleftfeet

twoleftfeet — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 15:44:37 -0800

They would still be useful as a kind of "portfolio"; a portable example of the worker's talent. The Wikipedia article says that they range in size from 4 cm to 11 cm (2 to 4 inches), which is pretty small, so it wouldn't be a huge waste of materials to keep one around. My knowledge of metalworking is fairly minimal (I once straightened out a paperclip) but I imagine it would be hard to make a lost wax cast with those little balls on the vertices; you'd have to destroy the mold to get the dodecahedron out, so there would have to be a one-off aspect to making one of these things. This article mentions that one dodecahedron has been found with the names of the signs of the zodiac inscribed on the faces, which does suggest a religious use, but then why wouldn't more of them be so inscribed? Perhaps the inscriptions are purely decorative, which then would suggest the dodecahedra didn't really have a "use" at all. Surprisingly little about this on the web.