There are soooooo many things wrong with this story.
posted by mudbug at 11:39 AM on July 26, 2001

Somebody should "smack the mother in the mouth", or arrest her.
posted by bjgeiger at 11:48 AM on July 26, 2001

The problem is right there in the sub-head:

the boy kicked her in the stomach during an argument

If you find yourself getting into "arguments" with your six year old, you've got a big problem. You "argue" with your peers. Your 6 year old is not your peer. To be the parent, you've got to be the grown-up.

Are there "parenting" classes available to people? God knows people need them.
posted by jpoulos at 12:04 PM on July 26, 2001

Let me be the first to point to this story as a metaphor for US/ Rest O' World international relations, a la this thread from yesterday about the Germ Warfare Accord....
posted by hincandenza at 12:05 PM on July 26, 2001

One word: Florida. It figures.
As a resident, these constant embarrassments are getting ridiculous.
posted by mtevis at 12:34 PM on July 26, 2001

It's not a Florida thing. It's a "treating children as equals" thing, and a "lack of true discipline" thing. Bet you this kid won't be kicking anyone anytime soon...
posted by owillis at 1:18 PM on July 26, 2001

Bet you this kid won't be kicking anyone anytime soon...

Bet you he will. If you think that a six year old is capable of reasoning on that level, you're mistaken. But I'm not sure what you mean, owillis. Please clarify.
posted by jpoulos at 1:40 PM on July 26, 2001

Before we crucify this mother, we ought to bear in mind that we don't know the full story. We're getting this story third-hand, at best.

I'm not sure sending the child off to jail at 6 is such a great idea. However, anything that can be done to instill some discipline in him when he's 6 will be better than sending him to jail when he's 16. Because at this rate, it sounds like he's going to see the inside of a jail cell sooner or later.
posted by ratbastard at 1:42 PM on July 26, 2001

However, anything that can be done to instill some discipline in him when he's 6 will be better than sending him to jail when he's 16.

Hmm ... but at age six it should really be the parents who are disciplining the child, not "the system."

I remember as a kid the parents who raised their kids to be terrified of police ... the parents scared the kids into wearing seatbelts not because of the safety issue, but because the "cops will get you" if you don't wear a seatbelt.

The police are employed for the protection of citizens, not to "teach a lesson" to a six-year-old.
posted by Johannahh at 1:51 PM on July 26, 2001

Yep, Johannahh. That's why they didn't want to let the kid go when the mom decided not to press charges. (I'm agreeing, not arguing.)

I've got really mixed feelings about that. I can see their point, but he shouldn't have been there in the first place. The cops should have known better, the mom should have known better, the grandma should have known better, and the kid (even though he's 6) should have known better.

In this story, everyone's a dumbass.
posted by mudbug at 1:57 PM on July 26, 2001

The police are employed for the protection of citizens, not to "teach a lesson" to a six-year-old.

Actually, I'd say the police are there to do both. In this case, the police are teaching the child a lesson (whether they want to or not) and hopefully protecting the mother and the unborn sibling from future harm.

Ideally, rehabilitation is as much about educating the criminal as protecting the public.
posted by ratbastard at 2:03 PM on July 26, 2001

In this story, everyone's a dumbass.

*grin*
posted by Johannahh at 2:03 PM on July 26, 2001

The whole situation sounds toxic: from (as everyone has commented) the problem of "arguing" with a 6-year-old to smacking your hyperactive kid in the mouth as a method of discipline. I try not to be too glib in judging parents, but I see the head-smacks that lots of parents give, and they look to me like they come out of frustration and anger, not a thought-out sense of discipline. (And have nothing to do with a perfectly reasonable policy of spanking a misbehaving kid).

I wouldn't want to "crucify" the mother either, ratbastard, but the combination of responses to his problems -- being hit and then being hauled off to jail -- seem likely to reinforce the idea that violence is the norm, and that jail is where he belongs. A seriously depressing situation.
posted by BT at 2:16 PM on July 26, 2001

A smack in the face is "discipline" like dumping kerosene on the misbehaving dog is "discipline." It isn't discipline at all, it's violent punishment. (And that's coming from someone who isn't anti-spanking.) Any parent who raises a hand in anger to strike a small child about the head ought not retain custody of that child.

This is why I'm glad I'm not a family court judge. If I were involved in this case, the kid would be in a residential treatment facility until his ADHD/temper problems were sorted though, the mom would lose custody of him and the kid-to-be and she and grandma would be riding a bench in the county lockup for a while.
posted by Dreama at 2:22 PM on July 26, 2001

Glad to see that Dreama is here to do the crucifyin' my timid soul balks at.
posted by BT at 2:27 PM on July 26, 2001

I try not to be too glib in judging parents, but I see the head-smacks that lots of parents give, and they look to me like they come out of frustration and anger, not a thought-out sense of discipline. (And have nothing to do with a perfectly reasonable policy of spanking a misbehaving kid).

It may very well make a difference to a parent whether she's giving a head smack "out of frustration and anger" or "spanking a misbehaving kid," but it really makes no difference to the child. Either way, he gets the message that violence is a legitimate way to deal with problems.

I slapped my older daughter one time. It was something I thought about first. She had been spiraling out of control for over an hour, and all attempts to reason with her had failed, and I thought that if I gave her one slap, it would get her attention and bring her out of the cycle she was in.

Boy was I wrong. All that happened was that she got angrier and indignant. And since I really knew that what I had done was wrong and an admission of weakness, I lost any leverage I might have had. I vowed never to do that again, not as much because it was cruel (although it was) as because it was so very ineffective.

As it happened, my daughter had some pretty severe food allergies that we discovered not long thereafter. By doing an elimination diet and testing her, we found that milk and most dairy products would cause her to go into an uncontrollable tantrum within a few minutes. I suspect that the misbehavior, ADD, etc. of many kids has environmental causes (not meaning the behavior of the parents, although that certainly can have a big impact).

In any case, it sounds like this child had already learned that hitting is an acceptable way to deal with people. He's unlikely to unlearn that by being locked up. He will learn that there are consequences, but kids with behavioral problems get out of control and don't really think much about the consequences when they're acting up.

By the way, in general, it would be nice to see a little less glibness by everyone in here who doesn't have kids. You don't need to have kids to see that the situation described here is very wrong, but when you start to say with certainty that you know how to fix the problem or how parents should act, you're speaking from a very limited base of experience.
posted by anapestic at 2:36 PM on July 26, 2001

My reading of the story is:

Mother assaults kid.
Grandmother joins assault.
Kid fights back.

Why are the police arresting the kid? Just because she's bigger and supposedly the adult doesn't mean that the mother should be able to call the police and have her son arrested when she starts a fight.

I admit that there's a lot I'm leaving out in that synopsis. The kid is probably a little shit. He's kicking a pregnant woman and he's done it before. However, he still is a human being and has a right to defend himself when someone else attacks him. Perhaps I'm underestimating the cops. They might have arrested him to get him out of a nasty situation.
posted by rdr at 2:54 PM on July 26, 2001

I suspect that the misbehavior, ADD, etc. of many kids has environmental causes

Sometimes I would also suspect bratty kids (not saying ADD, etc. doesnt exist but I do believe it is overly diagnosed)

has a right to defend himself when someone else attacks him

Doesn't seem like he was being attacked to me, he was being a little brat and may have had to be restrained - mostly because he saw his mom/grandmother as "equals" as opposed to authority figures.
posted by owillis at 2:57 PM on July 26, 2001

Does she know Father forgot boy for two hours in mid-80s heat, San Jose police say.?
posted by ParisParamus at 3:01 PM on July 26, 2001

Surreal.

In a million-billion it would never have occurred to me kick my Mom in the stomach. The notion has never existed in my universe. What I mean is, I have never had to restrain myself from kicking my Mom in the stomach, because the possibility itself never existed.

This stuff boggles me, which is why I never have much to say. It is like discussing the behavioral anomalies of a different species.

This kid is not being raised - he is just being allowed to get taller. And IMO, he is already ruined.
posted by Opus Dark at 7:13 PM on July 26, 2001

I see a Jerry Springer show here. Maybe a couple.

I don't know much about attention-deficit disorders and even less about child rearing, but if this kid has already been identified as having some sort of psychological malaise then what good is "tough love" -- kind of a dippy expression anyway? Is there nothing more medically sound than turning him into a little convict?
posted by Bixby23 at 7:20 PM on July 26, 2001

rdr: Why are the police arresting the kid? Just because she's bigger and supposedly the adult doesn't mean that the mother should be able to call the police and have her son arrested when she starts a fight.

owillis: Doesn't seem like he was being attacked to me, he was being a little brat and may have had to be restrained - mostly because he saw his mom/grandmother as "equals" as opposed to authority figures.

Once again I refer to my comment way up above at the beginning of this thread about conceiving of this situation as a metaphor of U.S. international relations- or vice versa, I suppose! My money's on the kid representing "Latin America in the 1980's", but that's just me...
posted by hincandenza at 7:50 PM on July 26, 2001

Many who've read my scratchings here at MeFi may be shocked to hear me say it, but here it is: I totally agree with Dreama!
This family is dysfunctional to a degree that boggles. Where is the love? Et tu granny?
Kinda obvious where mom learned her discipline skills. Is the grandmother still under 40? 15 + 15 + 6 = 36 Yup! :)
posted by nofundy at 12:04 PM on July 27, 2001